Need help solving a riddle from Rig Veda :)

[Aryavartian]

Namaste all,as the title says,i need some help from the members of HDF who are well versed in Vedic(sruti) texts to solve a tough riddle from Rg Veda.


First of all here are the verses(Griffith's trans):

3 The Youthful One, well-shaped, with four locks braided, brightened with oil, puts on the ordinances.
Two Birds of mighty power are seated near her, there where the Deities receive their portion.
4 One of these Birds hath passed into the sea of air: thence he looks round and views this universal world.
With simple heart I have beheld him from anear: his Mother kisses him and he returns her kiss.
5 Him with fair wings though only One in nature, wise singers shape, with songs, in many figures.
While they at sacrifices fix the metres, they measure out twelve chalices of Soma.



RV 10.114.3-5
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10114.htm

I have interpreted these verses in many ways,but i can't come to a conclusion.


My questions are:

Who is the "[I]Youthful One" described in the Verse 3?

And who are the "Two Birds of mighty power" seated near the youthful one?


Also,the verse 5, " Him with fair wings" in the original Sanskrit text reads as "Suparna".It is similar to the famous RgVedic verse 1.164.46 "To what is One, sages give many a title" in this verse to the term "Suparno Garutman" occurs.

So for my final question,who is this Suparna and what does it represents?

I hope members here can find good answers for my queries

Kindest regards,
A.

[Sudas Paijavana]

Pranam-s,

First, let us acknowledge to Whom these verses are dedicated, as per the Anukramani-s so we can uphold the importance of tradition and understand to Whom we owe prostrations of admiration:

If we are to take a quick glance at the Integrated* Shakalya-Bashkala Rig Veda, we will notice that verses 3-5 of R.V.10.114 are dedicated to (or, "revealed by") the Shri Vishve-Devah (the Shri Noble 33 Gods, which includes Vishnu, Shiva/Rudra, Agni, Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Savitur, etc.).

However, verses 1-3 & 5-10 of R.V.10.114 are in the Trishtup, where as only verse 4 of R.V.10.114 is in the Jagati (one of the most renowned Vedic meters of all time). So, I am curious as to why you have 3-5 in succession, without taking into account verse 4, which would be unique in its separateness and of different meter quality. Anyways, let us move towards the theological aspects of the verses in the said questions:

1. Who is the "Youthful One" described in the Verse 3?

Shri Agni: for he is the self-sacrificing and newly created one, thus always the most youthful one (while at the same time, recognized by the Rishis as the Foremost One, He That Is Always Placed In Front [aka: Purohita]).

Verse 3: personifying the ManDap/altar; it's a Vedic poetry thing. In fact, notice how Agni is invoked in the sense that he has become feminized into a "she" (kind of similar to how Indra was eulogized by another Bardic Rishi as a maiden in another hymn**).

2. And who are the "Two Birds of mighty power" seated near the youthful one?

The Ladles; those that carry the Ghrta/Ghee and pour it into the "Youthful One" to give "portion" to the other Shri Gods. They are metaphorically described as "birds" (not to be confused with the Famous Falcon of older hymns, and the Garutman of R.V.1.164).

3. Also,the verse 5, " Him with fair wings" in the original Sanskrit text reads as "Suparna".It is similar to the famous RgVedic verse 1.164.46 "To what is One, sages give many a title" in this verse to the term "Suparno Garutman" occurs. So for my final question,who is this Suparna and what does it represents?

Well, "su-parNo", also occurs in the famous Weapons of War Hymn as well:

suparṇáṃ vaste mr̥gó asyā dánto góbhiḥ sáṃnaddhā patati prásūtā yátrā náraḥ sáṃ ca ví ca drávanti tátrāsmábhyam íṣavaḥ śárma yaṃsan (R.V.6.75.11)

In the above we notice that an arrow is being metaphor-ized into being constructed of various animal parts (e.g., deer horns are the "dantā" [teeth]; self-seeking missile "mRgo asyā"). And, we notice that "suparNa-m" simply refers to the feathers of the arrow: "the feathery arrow self-seeking to the enemy with deer horns for teeth...".

To answer your question: it's an adjective; not a noun.

Also, keep in mind that R.V.164 and the verse therein "Ekam sat viprA..." is dedicated ALSO to the Shri Vishve Devah (the Shri 33 Gods).

In fact, every single verse that is in your post (including your signature) is dedicated to the Shri Vishve Devah (the Shri 33 Gods).

However, you must keep in mind that your signature (which is similar to Wilson's translation) is a little odd in the sense that the Rig Veda which Griffith used did not have a 8.58 dedicated to the Shri Vishve Devah but instead to Shri Indra, which I find unique, since both Wilson and the Integrated Edition has 8.58 dedicated to the Shri Vishve Devah. The latter have a hymn that has only three verses, whereas Griffith's has 18 verses for the 8.58 he used.

Anyway, regarding the dedication being to the Shri Vishve Devah, I guess what I am trying to convey is....that, be careful when you come across such verses that may make you believe that they are talking about monotheism and a One Almighty Supreme God, when they in fact are most certainly not. Also, keep in mind that when a Rig Vedic verse is misused in such a manner, it automatically is self-voided and becomes nullified. Instead, we need to understand that these verses are basically the opposite of the "Royal We" (where one person self-invokes him/herself in the plural). In other words, instead of one person self-invoking in the plural, the Shri Vishve-Devah often describe Themselves in the Opposite "Royal We": many Personas/Deities self-invoke Themselves in the singular to express Divine Unity.

*scroll down to R.V.10.114
**let me know if you would like verse number for the verses about Indra being invoked as a maiden so you can compare the two hymns side by side

[Jaskaran Singh]

2. And who are the "Two Birds of mighty power" seated near the youthful one?

The Ladles; those that carry the Ghrta/Ghee and pour it into the "Youthful One" to give "portion" to the other Shri Gods. They are metaphorically described as "birds" (not to be confused with the Famous Falcon of older hymns, and the Garutman of R.V.1.164).

Really? I would assume it would refer to sUrya and chandramA based on yAska's statement (yatra suparNAH supatanAH AdityarashmayaH amR^itasya bhAgam udakasya animiShantaH vedanena abhisvaranti iti vA abhiprayanti iti vA IshvaraH sarveShAm bhUtAnAm gopAyitA AdityaH saH mA dhIraH pAkam atra...). In addition, the nirukta predates the sarvAnukramaNikA texts by more than three centuries and is a vedA~Nga; hence, I'm tempted to believe it over your view that the birds are ladles and over sAyaNa's view that one bird represents the jIvAtmA and the other represents the paramAtmA, if only because of scriptural authority. I could understand any of the interpretations though; the view that they are ladles fits very well with the "tám mAtÁ reLhi sáu reLhi mAtáram" portion of the consecutive mantram, as the vedi/havanakuNDa is often connected with shakti/umA, according to the rudrahR^idayopaniShad, which states "rudro yaj~na umA vedistasmai tasyai namo namaH rudro vahnirUmA svAhA tasmai tasyai namo namaH."

[Sudas Paijavana]

Really? I would assume it would refer to sUrya and chandramA based on yAska's statement (yatra suparNAH supatanAH AdityarashmayaH amR^itasya bhAgam udakasya animiShantaH vedanena abhisvaranti iti vA abhiprayanti iti vA IshvaraH sarveShAm bhUtAnAm gopAyitA AdityaH saH mA dhIraH pAkam atra...). ........"

Yes, this is very true.

OP, I would keep in mind that Yaska's take on the matter supersedes in terms of traditional importance, so it would be very traditional to see the "two birds" as rather Surya and Chandra, instead. Thanks be to Jaskaran for pointing that out.

EDIT: It was brought to my attention that the "two birds" could also be alluding to Aditi and ILa. I never thought of this, but I am now wondering if this could be theologically applicable to the verse and hymn in said question. Any thoughts on this? Personally, I find Ladles or the Sun & Moon to be theologically applicable, whereas I am unsure about Aditi and ILa.

[Alter ego]

Parokshapriya hi devah

[Aryavartian]

Namaste Sudas,

Pranam-s,

First, let us acknowledge to Whom these verses are dedicated, as per the Anukramani-s so we can uphold the importance of tradition and understand to Whom we owe prostrations of admiration:

If we are to take a quick glance at the Integrated* Shakalya-Bashkala Rig Veda, we will notice that verses 3-5 of R.V.10.114 are dedicated to (or, "revealed by") the Shri Vishve-Devah (the Shri Noble 33 Gods, which includes Vishnu, Shiva/Rudra, Agni, Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Savitur, etc.).

Yes,i know that Sukta 114 is dedicated to Visvedevas or all Rg Vedic deities.

However, verses 1-3 & 5-10 of R.V.10.114 are in the Trishtup, where as only verse 4 of R.V.10.114 is in the Jagati (one of the most renowned Vedic meters of all time). So, I am curious as to why you have 3-5 in succession, without taking into account verse 4, which would be unique in its separateness and of different meter quality. Anyways, let us move towards the theological aspects of the verses in the said questions:

I have included the verse 4 in OP,but i have excluded it from my questions because it is needless to explain(i can understand the theme).

Shri Agni: for he is the self-sacrificing and newly created one, thus always the most youthful one (while at the same time, recognized by the Rishis as the Foremost One, He That Is Always Placed In Front [aka: Purohita]).


Verse 3: personifying the ManDap/altar; it's a Vedic poetry thing. In fact, notice how Agni is invoked in the sense that he has become feminized into a "she" (kind of similar to how Indra was eulogized by another Bardic Rishi as a maiden in another hymn**).

Reasonable explanation,thanks!
But i wonder why the poet feminized Agni

I would like to get the hymn in which Indra is feminized.Please provide it if you have access.

The Ladles; those that carry the Ghrta/Ghee and pour it into the "Youthful One" to give "portion" to the other Shri Gods. They are metaphorically described as "birds" (not to be confused with the Famous Falcon of older hymns, and the Garutman of R.V.1.164).

I think in Yajnas and Homas,we only use one laddle to pour ghee and other oblations.Why does this verse speak of 2 ladles/birds?

Also,please explain the verse 5 based on this interpretation:

" Him with fair wings though only One in nature, wise singers shape, with songs, in many figures."



The phrase "Him with fair wings" obviously refers to one of the "birds of mighty power" as described in verse 3,which flew into the atmosphere and viewed the whole world as in verse 4.

So based on your interpretation,why would Vedic seers praise a mere ladle with songs and shape it in many forms?Normally it is an attribute of Brahman in Advaita POV.

Well, "su-parNo", also occurs in the famous Weapons of War Hymn as well:

suparṇ�ṃ vaste mr̥g� asyā d�nto g�bhiḥ s�ṃnaddhā patati pr�sūtā y�trā n�raḥ s�ṃ ca v� ca dr�vanti t�trāsm�bhyam �ṣavaḥ ś�rma yaṃsan (R.V.6.75.11)

In the above we notice that an arrow is being metaphor-ized into being constructed of various animal parts (e.g., deer horns are the "dantā" [teeth]; self-seeking missile "mRgo asyā"). And, we notice that "suparNa-m" simply refers to the feathers of the arrow: "the feathery arrow self-seeking to the enemy with deer horns for teeth...".

To answer your question: it's an adjective; not a noun.

Thanks for the detailed explanation

Also, keep in mind that R.V.164 and the verse therein "Ekam sat viprA..." is dedicated ALSO to the Shri Vishve Devah (the Shri 33 Gods).

I am aware of that.

In fact, every single verse that is in your post (including your signature) is dedicated to the Shri Vishve Devah (the Shri 33 Gods).

Again,i'm aware.

However, you must keep in mind that your signature (which is similar to Wilson's translation) is a little odd in the sense that the Rig Veda which Griffith used did not have a 8.58 dedicated to the Shri Vishve Devah but instead to Shri Indra, which I find unique, since both Wilson and the Integrated Edition has 8.58 dedicated to the Shri Vishve Devah. The latter have a hymn that has only three verses, whereas Griffith's has 18 verses for the 8.58 he used.

Actually i interpreted the verse 8.58.2 from various sources.First i looked at the regional translation of RV in my first language and then i checked two German translations(one by Geldner and another by some author that i don't know of).I also searched on google books for this exact verse.All of them seems to have same theme i.e one fire,one sun,one dawn and all that here is one(ekam va idam vi bhabhuva sarvam).I just explained it in more detail

Unfortunately,Griffith's translation is quite vague(as you said it is dedicated to Indra,which is quite weird compared to the other translations i have checked)and i don't know of any other English translation that i can find online.

Anyway, regarding the dedication being to the Shri Vishve Devah, I guess what I am trying to convey is....that, be careful when you come across such verses that may make you believe that they are talking about monotheism and a One Almighty Supreme God, when they in fact are most certainly not. Also, keep in mind that when a Rig Vedic verse is misused in such a manner, it automatically is self-voided and becomes nullified. Instead, we need to understand that these verses are basically the opposite of the "Royal We" (where one person self-invokes him/herself in the plural). In other words, instead of one person self-invoking in the plural, the Shri Vishve-Devah often describe Themselves in the Opposite "Royal We": many Personas/Deities self-invoke Themselves in the singular to express Divine Unity.

Thanks for the kind advise Sri Sudas But in some other cases,like in Nasadiya Sukta,the term ekam or the one clearly refers to the absolute.

[Aryavartian]

Really? I would assume it would refer to sUrya and chandramA based on yAska's statement (yatra suparNAH supatanAH AdityarashmayaH amR^itasya bhAgam udakasya animiShantaH vedanena abhisvaranti iti vA abhiprayanti iti vA IshvaraH sarveShAm bhUtAnAm gopAyitA AdityaH saH mA dhIraH pAkam atra...).

Namaste Jaskaran,please provide English translation of this phrase
Sadly,i'm not well versed in Sanskrit.

[Aryavartian]

Yes, this is very true.

OP, I would keep in mind that Yaska's take on the matter supersedes in terms of traditional importance, so it would be very traditional to see the "two birds" as rather Surya and Chandra, instead. Thanks be to Jaskaran for pointing that out.

EDIT: It was brought to my attention that the "two birds" could also be alluding to Aditi and ILa. I never thought of this, but I am now wondering if this could be theologically applicable to the verse and hymn in said question. Any thoughts on this? Personally, I find Ladles or the Sun & Moon to be theologically applicable, whereas I am unsure about Aditi and ILa.

I think Aditi & Ila is a vague interpretation.AFAIK,Ila is more associated with Sarasvati and Bharati than with Aditi.

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

Namaste all,as the title says,i need some help from the members of HDF who are well versed in Vedic(sruti) texts to solve a tough riddle from Rg Veda.

Namaste Aryavartian,
I was passing by, when this caught my attention, and just thought adding something here that could be of value (with the anumati of mods).

The Youthful One, well-shaped, with four locks braided, brightened with oil, puts on the ordinances.

The "youthful one" (युवति) is Aditi, "The All". Her four braided locks are all the four realms of Hindu cosmology: Prithvi, Dyo, Antariksha, and Samudra.

Two Birds of mighty power are seated near her, there where the Deities receive their portion.

The two said birds (here and everywhere else in RV) are DyavaPrithvi (Heaven and Earth). Yaska's Sun and Moon also figuratively denote these two. Or, very roughly, even the soul-body pair.

4 One of these Birds hath passed into the sea of air: thence he looks round and views this universal world.

So, let us say, the "soul" (Dyo/ Heaven actually) the bird flies to-and-fro in and out of various realms of Vastness, such as Antriksha (Mother's/ Devi's womb), or Samudra (Fathers' Realm).

With simple heart I have beheld him from anear: his Mother kisses him and he returns her kiss.

Finite is always the child of Infinite. Mother is, moreover, the All-Loving.

5 Him with fair wings though only One in nature, wise singers shape, with songs, in many figures.

If we see Soma as The Lord of Dyo/ Heaven, then indeed it is Soma who is extolled here as the bird. RV focuses on Soma as the base of all realisations.

While they at sacrifices fix the metres, they measure out twelve chalices of Soma.

12 is Aditi. There is nothing more to achieve/ become/ realise.

Also,the verse 5, " Him with fair wings" in the original Sanskrit text reads as "Suparna".It is similar to the famous RgVedic verse 1.164.46 "To what is One, sages give many a title" in this verse to the term "Suparno Garutman" occurs.

That one is Garuda Deva, to be understood separately from these "two birds" of the present context.

Best wishes,
KT

[Sudas Paijavana]

Namaste,

But i wonder why the poet feminized Agni

I would like to get the hymn in which Indra is feminized.Please provide it if you have access.

There is nothing theologically wrong or immoral with the Bardic Poet feminizing Shri Agni.

And, the Indra hymn & verse in question is R.V.8.33.17-19. Another interesting verse that is an example of a male Deity(-ies) being feminized is R.V.1.85.1.

Also,please explain the verse 5 based on this interpretation:

" Him with fair wings though only One in nature, wise singers shape, with songs, in many figures."



The phrase "Him with fair wings" obviously refers to one of the "birds of mighty power" as described in verse 3,which flew into the atmosphere and viewed the whole world as in verse 4.

So based on your interpretation,why would Vedic seers praise a mere ladle with songs and shape it in many forms?Normally it is an attribute of Brahman in Advaita POV.

You are more than welcomed to kindly ask about this in the Advaita section. But, "him with fair wings" is referring to Shri Agni, as per my honest assessment.