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Thread: Need help solving a riddle from Rig Veda :)

  1. #11

    Re: Need help solving a riddle from Rig Veda :)

    Namaste dear Kalicharan,interesting interpretation! However,i still have doubts



    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post

    If we see Soma as The Lord of Dyo/ Heaven, then indeed it is Soma who is extolled here as the bird. RV focuses on Soma as the base of all realisations.
    I don't think Soma is the lord of heaven.It is Indra or Sakra who is usually praised as lord of heaven(s).

    Association of Soma with bird is interesting,nevertheless,because it is usually a bird who delivers Soma,much like Garuda delivering Amrita in the later scriptures.
    "Only one is the fire,which is inflamed in numerous ways.Only one is the sun, which pervades the whole universe.Only one is the dawn,which illuminates all things. Similarly,all that exists is The One and it has manifested into everything here.”

    ~ Rg Veda 8.58.2

  2. #12

    Re: Need help solving a riddle from Rig Veda :)

    Namaste Sudas,

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Namaste,




    And, the Indra hymn & verse in question is R.V.8.33.17-19. Another interesting verse that is an example of a male Deity(-ies) being feminized is R.V.1.85.1.
    Thanks for the verses !


    You are more than welcomed to kindly ask about this in the Advaita section. But, "him with fair wings" is referring to Shri Agni, as per my honest assessment.
    I frankly think the context of these verses have nothing to with Advaita

    AFAIK Agni as a bird only occurs in later ritualistic Brahmana texts,like in Atiratra we shape the altar in the form of a raptor.
    "Only one is the fire,which is inflamed in numerous ways.Only one is the sun, which pervades the whole universe.Only one is the dawn,which illuminates all things. Similarly,all that exists is The One and it has manifested into everything here.”

    ~ Rg Veda 8.58.2

  3. #13

    Re: Need help solving a riddle from Rig Veda :)

    For all those who are interested in this topic,here is an interesting read.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Jiva_and_Atman


    I suppose in these verses,the youthful one or yuvati is replaced as a tree...
    "Only one is the fire,which is inflamed in numerous ways.Only one is the sun, which pervades the whole universe.Only one is the dawn,which illuminates all things. Similarly,all that exists is The One and it has manifested into everything here.”

    ~ Rg Veda 8.58.2

  4. #14
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    Re: Need help solving a riddle from Rig Veda :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    And, the Indra hymn & verse in question is R.V.8.33.17-19.
    Isn't that the one with the infamous sexist verse?:

    इ॑न्द्रश्चिद्घा त॑दब्रवीत्स्त्रिया॑शास्य॑म्म॑नः।
    उतो॑ अह क्र॑तुं रघु॑म्॥८.३३.१७॥

    índrashchidghA tádabravItstriyÁshAsyám mánaH|
    utó aha krátuM raghúm||8.33.17||

    "Indra (índrash), as surely (ghA) perceived (chit), stated (abravIt) that (tád) the mind (mánaH) of a woman (striyÁ) is unteachable (ashAsyám) and (utó) indeed (aha) her determination (krátuM) is mercurial (raghúm)."

    Why does this verse seem to be saying that women are unable to concentrate? Is that really what is meant?
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

  5. #15

    Re: Need help solving a riddle from Rig Veda :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaskaran Singh View Post

    Isn't that the one with the infamous sexist verse?:

    इ॑न्द्रश्चिद्घा त॑दब्रवीत्स्त्रिया॑शास्य॑म्म॑नः।
    उतो॑ अह क्र॑तुं रघु॑म्॥८.३३.१७॥

    �ndrashchidghA t�dabravItstriy�shAsy�m m�naH|
    ut� aha kr�tuM ragh�m||8.33.17||

    "Indra (�ndrash), as surely (ghA) perceived (chit), stated (abravIt) that (t�d) the mind (m�naH) of a woman (striy�) is unteachable (ashAsy�m) and (ut�) indeed (aha) her determination (kr�tuM) is mercurial (ragh�m)."

    Why does this verse seem to be saying that women are unable to concentrate? Is that really what is meant?
    Namaste,

    If the verse in said question (R.V.8.33.17) is looked at alone, taken out of its context, it can surely be evaluated as being sexist. But, like all Rig Vedic verses [and any other Vedic verses for that matter], this verse too must be looked at in context of the hymn in which it is found.

    Hymn R.V.8.33 is a conversation between a female Indra and the Rishi Medhyātithi of the KaNva-s (hence KāNvaH). Indra is revealing "himself" as a "she", more specifically: a damsel. The greatest proof this theological prognosis has is found in the last verse of R.V.8.33, in verse R.V.8.33.19:

    “Cast down thine eyes and look not up. More closely set thy feet. let none see what thy garment veils, for thou (Indra), a Brahman, hast [now] become a dame.” (R.V.8.33.19)

    Personally, I see R.V.8.33.17 being scrutinized way too often by either critics or those that take a "not so concerned" stance (and I'm assuming that you are obviously taking the latter completely innocent of any bias), when, instead, a verse found in another mandala is [or should be concentrated on more since it is] of a more "serious" nature [or should be taken as being of a more "serious" nature by critics].

    In R.V.10.95, in the second part of verse R.V.10.95.15, the lay reader [or the critic] will encounter something that they'll find, I presume, rather quite distasteful:

    “…with women there can be no lasting friendship: hearts of hyenas are the hearts of women…" (R.V.10.95.15.b)

    Unbeknownst to the lay reader of the Rig Vedic sūkta-s, this verse is uttered by Urvashi to Pururavas. In other words, it's a female divinity, herself, that revealed those words, not Pururavas (the Maharshi University's Integrated Shakalya-Bashkala Rig Veda wrongly recorded the verse attributions; in other words, a few of the verses in this sūkta are supposed to be recorded in the Integrated Edition as being dedicated to Urvashi instead, like R.V.10.95.15a&b).

    So while the "Indra Hymn" is about Indra saying those words as a female, verse R.V.10.95.15b is actually being uttered by a female - but, I rarely notice critics or non-biased inquirers speaking about this verse in the same frequency as they do about R.V.8.33.17.

    Either way, both hymns are just bardic play at work - their true intentions can only be grasped from the minds of the Rishis and Rishikā-s to whom these hymns were revealed - so are they really saying that women are of lesser intellect (R.V.8.33.17) and that women have the hearts of hyenas (R.V.10.95.15b)? ...Secularly, I am not sure.......but theologically I truly believe that they are not[1] "sexist" nor discriminatory/anti-female in the modern sense that today's critics will evaluate.

    More importantly, while these verses [along with those of the Purusha Sūkta-m] are often [arbitrarily] under the spotlight, the vast (majority) treasure of the Rig Veda is largely ignored. It is an unfortunate reality.

    1. R.V.8.33.17 and R.V.10.95.15, both, are "revealed" through "feminine" eyes; they are not meant to be taken as definitive nor representative of male-on-female-bias in the modern sense. They are not "commandments" (i.e., "thou shall see women as unteachable and as hyenas"). They are "musings" from a Deity that has come to the Rishi as a female and is speaking to the Rishi as a female, and a conversation between a heavenly/divine couple wherein, again, a female utters something that to modern eyes may come across as sexist or anti-female. However, judging the ethos of yuga-s old and prior is like me trying to make sense of the Ancient Greek mindset: "do good to your friends; do evil to your enemies".
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 05 January 2014 at 02:13 AM.

  6. #16
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    Re: Need help solving a riddle from Rig Veda :)

    Namaste Sudas
    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    so are they really saying that women are of lesser intellect (R.V.8.33.17) and that women have the hearts of hyenas (R.V.10.95.15b)? ...Secularly, I am not sure.......but theologically I truly believe that they are not[1] "sexist" nor discriminatory/anti-female in the modern sense that today's critics will evaluate.
    Not so long ago in another thread, we had a discussion about some statements in the scriptures that describe women, but not only women, in a way that suggests a kind of inferiority or subordination (my post is #6): http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=12275

    Sometimes people can't digest this kind of statements. In this connection I remember one anecdote. A few years ago in my country one show aired on the radio. It was a show for Catholics. They spoke about religious movements in this region. They talked about Srila Prabhupada also. They even searched the archives of his lectures recorded on audio tapes. There are many such lectures recorded. They found one where he talks about how women are less intelligent, and they aired in the radio show that part of his lecture. See, they wanted to show the audience what kind of faith and teachings of this Swami is. Needless to say that while they did not mention that this is not a personal opinion of Svami Prabhupada but part of teachings of Hindu dharma. When I heard this I just could not believe it. They tried so hard to find that one lecture where he just says so. Can you imagine this Sudas?
    (I mention this because I remember you said in one thread that you are interested in gossip ).

    regards

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