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Thread: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

  1. #1
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    Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Hello everyone:

    The issue I would like to bring up for discussion in this thread is the following and it is very simple.

    What, if proven to be true, would be a defeater for Hinduism?

    [Now, there are certain things that are plain straight forward but also completely irrelevant that I hope are not raised in this thread - these would be stuff like - If it is proven Adam/Eve existed...If it is proven that Allah exists..., etc.]

    Notice, that I am framing the question so that the burden of proof is on the "opponent". This is to prevent the opponent from asking me to prove the non-existence of pink unicorns.

    Now, when I say "defeater for Hinduism" what Hinduism am I referring to? Hinduism is a generic name given to the different belief systems that evolved in ancient India. Yet, there are certain philosophical/metaphysical issues that are common to all Hindu schools of thought that may also overlap with science.

    (1)Existence of a soul/self.
    (2)Existence of an afterlife for the soul/self.
    (3)The universe has an infinite past. The entire universe goes through cycles of "creation" and "dissolution" but the same material cause/souls are reused across cycles. The souls have beginningless Karma.
    (4)There is no "end" state for the universe.

    Some possible defeaters that can be raised are:

    (1)evolution - I cannot speak for others, but I find no reason why this would be a defeater for Hinduism. I have rudimentary knowledge of evolution but can reconcile with theistic-guided evolution. Hinduism also has the concept of various avatars of Vishnu that can be reconciled with evolution.

    (2)The universe does NOT have an infinite past but time itself began with the Big Bang. Now, if this is proven true, then clearly, the concept of beginningless Karma takes a hit. But proving that time itself began with the Big Bang is not that trivial. This post may be of interest.

    (3)Consciousness is an emergent property of living things. Per Hinduism, consciousness is the very essence of the soul or else it is considered a property of the soul. Hinduism accords special importance to the existence of a self and its relationship to consciousness. Now, if it is proven that consciousness is nothing sui-generis, it is indeed a defeater for Hinduism.

    What other discoveries do you think science can make that would throw a wrench in the works? Notice the emphasis on "science". So, let us not discuss the Problem of Evil on this thread. Let us also keep paradoxes such as omnipotence vs omniscience, etc. out of this discussion.

    PS: As the Opening Poster, I promise to be very polite on this thread. Let us try to keep the discussions interesting and polite.

  2. #2

    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Namaste wundermonk,

    This sounds to be an interesting discussion; thank you for posting.

    If I might humbly explain that to my mind, the premise of your title would imply battle, sanAtana dharma is to my mind more like a plant growing; changing with the seasons, dependant upon the elements. Growing in prakRiti and our collective conciousness.

    Now Hinduism, is a word upon that plant. If we examine it more closely, we may observe that "Hindu" with the ending "ism"; its self denotes or imply the existence of other branches upon this plant.

    We could talk of another branch out growing the isms sub set, or, another ism putting Hinduism into obscurity.

    Nothing can defeat Hinduism it is a philosophy; Hindus how ever, may be fought for land.

    It is philosophy that is used to justify such battles, yet, it is not the philosophies who fight, it is man. For what? For Water, Land, Women and Riches.

    Where sanAtana dharma (Hinduism) to my mind, out classes other doctrine, is quite simply; by being the Grand Mother of them all. In her very being, She shows the forms and elements nature. In ways that other doctrines can barely understand, even her own practitioner struggle to grasp the entirety of that which she denotes.

    I will predict that science will return home to sanAtana dharma (Hinduism) as the more recent understandings, brought to light by recent branches and discoveries in Astronomy, Genetics, Neurology + + + , the more closed minded linear Scientist will start to see the connection between the underlying patters of life and, that which the ṛṣi have been describing for aeons.

    The paradigm will start to shift rapidly back to the eternal law of mother nature; Many would say that this is already happening.

    Hinduism will not be defeated, recognised maybe; as having carried the flame through such diversity for so long, never defeated.

    I'm not sure that this is the sort of posting you wish for intellectual debate, it is I can assure you, from the Heart.



    praNAma

    mana

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Vannakkam wundermunk: I'm not exactly sure of what you had in mind, but a thought occurred to me, "What would it take for me personally to stop believing in Hinduism?" and from that, although it seems preposterous, I applied the molecular theory of social change with reasoning, "If it happens to me, then maybe the same could happen to all other Hindus, thus eliminating Hinduism."

    So on a personal level, I see logic as a barrier in and of itself. I think the more time we spend in intellectual pursuit, the less our deeper feelings about faith become. It diminishes 'stuff'. Take a guidebook on practical Hinduism, for example. Someone comes along intellectually full of pride and says, '"But I read that book already." The teacher replies, "Oh yes but did you understand it?"

    Another thing that could win us over, IMHO, is the loss of tradition, in the agamic mystical sense. If there was nothing out there left of that powerful heart-felt energy, then just what would be left?

    But as far as what I can understand as to that you might be implying, "Would any debater debate, or prove something to defeat Hinduism or the arguments we have on the nature of God, etc., I would stick my neck out and say, No, that's impossible. Natural laws like those within sanatana dharma may be given different names, or forgot about temporarily, but they still exist. I do believe the tree does make a sound, even we're not there.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    (2)The universe does NOT have an infinite past but time itself began with the Big Bang. Now, if this is proven true, then clearly, the concept of beginningless Karma takes a hit. But proving that time itself began with the Big Bang is not that trivial. This post may be of interest.
    Of course this would have to be accompanied by a proof that it is the only universe, and that it is the only occurrence (will not be repeated again and was not repeated before).

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    (3)Consciousness is an emergent property of living things. Per Hinduism, consciousness is the very essence of the soul or else it is considered a property of the soul. Hinduism accords special importance to the existence of a self and its relationship to consciousness. Now, if it is proven that consciousness is nothing sui-generis, it is indeed a defeater for Hinduism.
    This would not be a problem for me, in fact I think it would only be an isue for the strictest dvaita philosophy. Saiva Siddhanta teaches that souls emerge from Shiva and return to him:

    "As a thousand sparks from a fire well blazing spring forth, each one like the rest, so from the Imperishable all kinds of beings come forth, my dear, and to Him return."

    Just as the sparks emerge from the fire, but require carbon fragments and air, would it be an issue if souls emerging from Shiva needed prakriti to take form?



    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    What other discoveries do you think science can make that would throw a wrench in the works? Notice the emphasis on "science". So, let us not discuss the Problem of Evil on this thread. Let us also keep paradoxes such as omnipotence vs omniscience, etc. out of this discussion.

    PS: As the Opening Poster, I promise to be very polite on this thread. Let us try to keep the discussions interesting and polite.
    I am not sure that there is anything that could throw a wrench in the works completely.... unless you count "pseudo science" like the possibility of digging a deep pit and finding hell.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    1-peaceful co-habitation of human and dinosaurs (as veda described Sanaka,Sanatha kumar etc existed millions years back)

    2-Evolution from virus through dinosaurs to homo-sapience.

    3-Inter planetary migrations of souls as Earth is never the only inhabitable souls and its also not going to stay to eternity.

    4-cloning ...cloning from body tissue apart from germ cells

    4-Karmik samskars is associated with souls before creation....?
    If Sanaka,Sanatkumar could directly went for meditation after birth,why other souls born first time failed to trap of Maya/karma-samskar? As they must be born with sattva-dominance ?

    5- Why the need of Freedom..as one forget everything after death,why should one other what is happening to a person next birth,though he might be the same soul?

    so many.....without proper answers....I will put some more later.
    Last edited by anirvan; 26 April 2012 at 07:06 AM. Reason: add
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tāṇḍava View Post
    Saiva Siddhanta teaches that souls emerge from Shiva and return to him:

    "As a thousand sparks from a fire well blazing spring forth, each one like the rest, so from the Imperishable all kinds of beings come forth, my dear, and to Him return."
    This is the teaching of a new age movement. A "Church" founded by a western Guru, which mixes up Shaiva Siddhanta teachings, Theosophy, Christiantity, Buddhism and diverse New age teachings. In the traditional indian agamic Shaivaism also called Shaiva Siddhanta, the souls, bondage and Shiva are eternal. The concept of fully merging into Shiva does not exist in agamic Shaivaism and i am not aware of any hindu tradition who teaches that the atma can cease to exist. This idea must have been adopted from Buddhism because it is a buddhist belief that Nirvana is cessation, but wherever he got this idea from, it was not taken from Hinduism.

    "Eternal Entities
    Saiva Siddhanta believes in the three eternal entities of God, Soul and Bondage (materials of bondage). These are called Pati, Pasu and Pasam respectively in Siddhanta philosophy. Pati means Lord (of the souls) who is God. Pasam means bondage. Pasu means that which is under bondage. All things known and perceived are included in these three categories.

    According to Saiva Siddhanta God is one, Souls are many and Pasam consists of three impurities (malams) called Anava (anavam), Karma (kanmam) and Maya (mayai). Like Pati who is real and eternal, Pasu and Pasam are also real and eternal.
    "
    Dr. K. Ganesalingam

    http://www.saivaworld.org/pageview.cgi?iD=903&cat=9
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 25 April 2012 at 11:17 AM.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    So on a personal level, I see logic as a barrier in and of itself. I think the more time we spend in intellectual pursuit, the less our deeper feelings about faith become. It diminishes 'stuff'. Take a guidebook on practical Hinduism, for example. Someone comes along intellectually full of pride and says, '"But I read that book already." The teacher replies, "Oh yes but did you understand it?"
    Namashkar Eastern Mind,
    I agree with what you say, you can intellectualise and analyse things too much. This is a trap that I fall into; my work in computer systems means that I an practised and habituated to analyse things. I disagree with it diminishing stuff though - it obscures things temporarily. Sitting down in front of the deities, hearing the bells and feeling the shakti brings you back to the real purpose - sensing God in yourself and others, not just theorising on why it must be there.
    Aum

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tāṇḍava View Post
    "As a thousand sparks from a fire well blazing spring forth, each one like the rest, so from the Imperishable all kinds of beings come forth, my dear, and to Him return."
    This is the teaching of a new age movement. A "Church" founded by a western Guru, which mixes up Shaiva Siddhanta teachings, Theosophy, Christiantity, Buddhism and diverse New age teachings.
    Actually it is from the Mundaka Upanishad, Second mundaka Book 1.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tāṇḍava View Post
    Actually it is from the Mundaka Upanishad, Second mundaka Book 1.
    It is a misquote, the meaning is not and never was, that the atma has a beginning or an end, such an idea is unknown in Hinduism. It is a key teaching that the atma is beginningless and eternal.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Source: The Upanishads by Swami Nikhilananda. Advaita Ashrama, Kolkata (pages 110-115)

    Mundaka Upanishad II.i. 1 As,from a blazing fire, sparks essentially akin to it fly forth by the thousand, soalso, my good friend, do various beings come forth from the imperishableBrahman and unto HIM again return.

    He is the self luminous andformless Purusha, uncreated and existing both within and without. He is devoidof prana, devoid of mind, pure, and higher than the supreme Imperishable ( II.i.2)
    Of whom are born prana, mind,all the sense organs, akasa (sky/ether), air, fire, water, and earth whichsupports all. (II.i.3)

    Excerpts from MUNDAKA: Theradiant from dwells in the cave of the of heart and known to move in there…theradiant and subtler than the subtle, That is the indestructible Brahman……Thatis the prana, speech and mind; That is true and That is immortal. That alone isto be struck (II.ii.2) Take upanishads as

    The bow, the great weapon, andplace upon it the arrow sharpened by meditation. Then having drawn it back witha mind directed to the thought of Brahman, strike the mark, O my good friend-that which is imperishable. (II.ii. 3)

    Om is the bow; the atman is thearrow; Brahman is said to be the mark. It is to be struck by an undistractedmind. Then the atman becomes one with the Brahman, as the arrow with thetarget. ( II.ii.4)
    In Him are woven, heaven, earth,and the space in between, and the mind with all the sense organs. Know thatnon-dual Atman alone and give up all other talk. He is the bridge toimmortality. (II.ii.5)

    He move about, becomingmanifold, within the heart….Mediatate on Atman as Om. May you cross beyond thesea of darkness……He assumes the forms of mind and leads the body and senses; …dwellsin the body, inside the heart…the wise behold HIM fully in all things……therethe stainless and indivisible Brahman shines in the highest, golden sheath…itis That which they know who know the Self……The sun doesn’t shine there, nor themoon and the stars, nor these lightening, not to speak of the fire. When heshines, everything shines, everything shines after him…..this immortal Brahmanalone is before, that Brahman is behind, to the right and left. Brahman alonepervades…this universe is that supreme Brahman alone. ( II.ii 6-10)

    Charitra: It is likely that shiva was depicted as synonymouswith Brahman by Shaivaite sampradaya.

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