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Thread: Is Vamachara marga Dharmic ?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    personally, I "dislike" the word demi.

    I think "devtas" should be used instead of demi. demi was coined by shri prabhupada and though I have the utmost respect for him as I do for any acharya of our tradition, I choose to use the word 'devta' instead of demi to uderstand that sholka in gita.
    Hi

    you guys are pretty fast. for more that three hours I am in this forum, just replying to threads

    Just for your information, the word demigod is not coined by Prabhupada, but it is normal english word, which means mortal having extraordinary powers. As we refer devatas, abide in god during prelude, hence their mortality is well known the word demigod is direct translation of devatas.

    If you have wordweb installed in your system, just check for this word

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    I do not want to enter into disputation about chronology of Puranas, since i think it is rather irrelevant to the issue discussed. Of course we cannot put any exact date to oral tradition, be it of Puranas or Tantras. But those texts of Puranas which exist nowadays are not very ancient.
    In any case, pauranika authority is very much secondary one, while Vedas (Upanishads included) and Agamas are of primary importance.

    Regarding the first point about God-worship vs gods-worship, Tantrism holds on to absolutist monistic view. Though in relative sense we can say there are "demi-gods" as particular powers (shaktis) of the Anuttara, God is one and only. Shakta-tantras call Him/Her as Shiva/Kali, Shaivagamas as Shiva or Rudra, Vaishnavagamas as Vishnu or Krishna — but Godhead is one.

    Of course, cults of kshudra-devatas and alike are not God-worship and do not lead to Mukti.
    Which agamas you say are primary importance.

    I understand Agamas include, sivaagama, Vaikanasa and Paancharaatra. All three I had mentioned are not present when Shri Ved Vyasa classified Puranas, hence it clearly indicates it came much later to Purana

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Just for your information, the word demigod is not coined by Prabhupada, but it is normal english word, which means mortal having extraordinary powers. As we refer devatas, abide in god during prelude, hence their mortality is well known the word demigod is direct translation of devatas.
    If you have wordweb installed in your system, just check for this word
    demigod |?dem??gäd| noun ( fem. demigoddess |?dem??gädis|) a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.
    • figurative a person who is greatly admired or feared.
    ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: translating Latin semideus.
    (Oxford Dictionary from MacOSX package)

    But i do not agree on that it is a translation of "devata". Devatas are aspects or powers, shaktis of Paramadevata, Mahashakti, dynamic "half" of the Godhead.
    Devatas are not "mortals". Please do not confuse mythical stories for kids with actual Reality .

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Which agamas you say are primary importance.
    I understand Agamas include, sivaagama, Vaikanasa and Paancharaatra. All three I had mentioned are not present when Shri Ved Vyasa classified Puranas, hence it clearly indicates it came much later to Purana
    There are three major classes of Agamas by sampradaya: Shaiva, Shakta and Vaishnava.
    Shaiva include Siddhanta (10), Rudra (18) and Bhairava (64) Agamas, the latter being of monistic and the highest in authority.
    Shakta Agamas = Kaulagamas or Tantras.
    Vaishnava are Pancharatra and Vaikhanasa.

    For all these traditions (Shaiva, Shakta and Vaishnava) Agamas are a part of Shruti, direct revelation from God (as Vedas). While Puranas, irrespectively of their date, are not Shruti and are secondary authority, like Itihasas and Smriti.

    I do not know exactly what U mean by Vyasa's classification. In any case, as i told, i view Puranas to be of relatively recent date. But this is not important, since they are not Shruti anyway.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    demigod |?dem??gäd| noun ( fem. demigoddess |?dem??gädis|) a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.
    • figurative a person who is greatly admired or feared.
    ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: translating Latin semideus.
    (Oxford Dictionary from MacOSX package)

    But i do not agree on that it is a translation of "devata". Devatas are aspects or powers, shaktis of Paramadevata, Mahashakti, dynamic "half" of the Godhead.
    Devatas are not "mortals". Please do not confuse mythical stories for kids with actual Reality .
    Dear Arjuna

    Are you sure about the last line. Devatas are mortals.

    For that supreme head of Devatas, Lord Brahma, his max age is determined as 100 years.

    All devatas are mortals and only God is immortal

    Jai shree krishna

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    There are three major classes of Agamas by sampradaya: Shaiva, Shakta and Vaishnava.
    Shaiva include Siddhanta (10), Rudra (18) and Bhairava (64) Agamas, the latter being of monistic and the highest in authority.
    Shakta Agamas = Kaulagamas or Tantras.
    Vaishnava are Pancharatra and Vaikhanasa.

    For all these traditions (Shaiva, Shakta and Vaishnava) Agamas are a part of Shruti, direct revelation from God (as Vedas). While Puranas, irrespectively of their date, are not Shruti and are secondary authority, like Itihasas and Smriti.

    I do not know exactly what U mean by Vyasa's classification. In any case, as i told, i view Puranas to be of relatively recent date. But this is not important, since they are not Shruti anyway.
    To which part of veda these agamas belong to?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Dear Arjuna
    Are you sure about the last line. Devatas are mortals.
    For that supreme head of Devatas, Lord Brahma, his max age is determined as 100 years.
    All devatas are mortals and only God is immortal
    Jai shree krishna
    Namaste,

    I prefer the monistic view and not mythological. In the advaitic system devatas can be only shaktis of God, or aspects of Consciousness (Chiti), and not any kind of separate entities or mortals.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    Namaste,

    I prefer the monistic view and not mythological. In the advaitic system devatas can be only shaktis of God, or aspects of Consciousness (Chiti), and not any kind of separate entities or mortals.
    Your ideas are really confounding.

    Aspect of consciousness does not corroborate with Advaitic view.

    There is no point in rejecting the reality in the name of mythology. If mythology is to be rejected, forms of shiva and shakti is to be rejected for such features are fundamentally mythological

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    To which part of veda these agamas belong to?
    Vedas and Agamas are the two halves of Shruti, general and specific.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42
    Your ideas are really confounding.
    Aspect of consciousness does not corroborate with Advaitic view.
    There is no point in rejecting the reality in the name of mythology. If mythology is to be rejected, forms of shiva and shakti is to be rejected for such features are fundamentally mythological
    Shiva and Shakti are essentially non-mythological, but are directly experienced and logically proved. Of course we have a large mythology of Shiva and Devi, but it is symbolic only.

    I do not see any problem in Consciousness having aspects. It does have, but still remain One. The whole world with all its differences is its manifestation, how can one say there are no aspects in it?

    Monism doesn't mean one thinks there is only void-like Brahman which is practically same as Shunya. Brahman is both passive and active, His active "part" is Mahashakti or Parasamvit, Consciousness.

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