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Thread: Tanmatras and Mahabhutas

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    Tanmatras and Mahabhutas

    Namaste Yajvan ji,

    This is from the thread 'Fossilism and Subjective Evolutionism'.

    I had quoted in that thread the following (I had omitted air in the message, sorry for the error):

    "From sound sky was born. From sky, water was born. From water, Fire was born. From Fire, earth was born. All these 5 'panchabhutas' did have consciousness of their own (or so I understand). The body of humans and other living entities which is but a combination of these panchabhutas, therefore had consciousness first before form.

    This is my understanding and I stand corrected, if any of my above assumptions is wrong."
    For this, your kind self had offered the following explanation:

    "I offer this just so we are avoiding mixing apples and oranges.

    If we choose to deal with sound then we're talking the 5 tanmātra-s. Yet if we then talk of sky and water ( ākāśa and jala) we have moved over to the mahābhuta-s.
    There is a slight difference, and thought it was worth mentioning."
    Based on the above conversation, I have 2 questions:

    1. Please explain more in detail about tanmatras and mahabhutas and why they are different.

    2. Please explain within the context of the above conversation what had prompted you for your observation. Is my understanding that 'Sound (pranava) yielded Akasha (sky)' is wrong? I am very curious to know what exactly you mean by mixing apples and oranges in the above message.

    Thanks and regards.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Tanmatras and Mahabhutas

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    It seems proper to start at the beginning , no ? And I ask others to add their insights/offers/knowledge as they see fit.

    First, where do these mahābhūta-s and tanmātra-s fit in ? That is, what is the overall conversation ? Macro-scopically
    (niravaśeṣatas¹) we are talking of all that is. But all that is what ? All that is manifest and unmanifest ( vyāvahātika + pāramārthika ) which helps
    us understand the subject matter at hand, yet is not the final view ; it helps us describe some of these concepts .
    In general we can say vyāvahātika + pāramārthika is that what easily perishes and that which never perishes.

    From another point of view ( which I prefer) it is how the Supreme enters this level of creation.
    From a mundane point of view , and if I where in industry , we could call this a bill of material list of all that is.
    From a more profound level of inquisition we call this the tattva-s of all that is.
    That is, mahābhūta-s and tanmātra-s reside as ~callouts~ as part of a family of tattva-s that describe all that is.

    Pending one's point of view ( darśana¹) the number of total tattva-s may ( and will) differ.
    Most often the śāṁkhya school is quoted with 25 ( some argue 26) tattva-s. The school
    I prefer within śaivism call out 36. This view includes all of the tattva-s we find in the śāṁkhya school
    but has a more refined view on this matter and is able to discern a few more other then the ones
    called out in the śāṁkhya school , the same way the śāṁkhya school has discerned more tattva-s
    found in other schools.


    Now many begin to take sides as to who is right or wrong; this is not the best orientation to approach this subject.
    The various lists of tattva-s are there to help us get closer to the truth and that is why
    there are different lists and definitions ( and implications thereof).

    The mahābhūta-s and tanmātra-s fall within a grouping structure outlining all the tattva-s, from earth (pṛthvī) to śiva ( Being).

    Yet before we list out the groups, a better undersanding of this word tattva is needed.
    I will offer my views in the next post.

    iti śiva

    words
    • niravaśeṣatas - completely , totally, fully
    • darśana - specifically it means seeing, knowing or ~school~ of thought; classically we talk of 6 :
      • śāṁkhya
      • yoga
      • vedānta
      • mīmāṃsā
      • nyāya
      • vaiśeṣika
    What do these 6 schools of thought address ? The views of Reality:
    Reality = vyāvahātika + pāramārthika ( the manifest or the world of diversity + the transcendent). And what then comes of this thought ?
    How they view this Reality:
    • advaita - no separateness or not two - unity
    • dvaita - separateness or 2 - diversity
    • viśiṣṭādvaita - separate yet - unity in diversity
    Last edited by yajvan; 26 July 2014 at 08:29 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Tanmatras and Mahabhutas

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    It seems proper to start at the beginning , no ? And I ask others to add their insights/offers/knowledge as they see fit.

    (niravaśeṣatas¹) All that is manifest and unmanifest ( vyāvahātika + pāramārthika ) which helps
    us understand the subject matter at hand, yet is not the final view ; it helps us describe some of these concepts .


    The mahābhūta-s and tanmātra-s fall within a grouping structure outlining all the tattva-s,
    from earth (pṛthvī) to śiva ( Being).

    Namaste Yajvan ji,

    So from your above message it appears to me think Tanmatras and Mahabhutas are tattwas that describe how the supreme permeates into each and every level of his creation but depending on schools, this might be a complete or incomplete list.

    Owing to my limited intelligence that is all I am able to glean out of your message #1, but I eagerly await further postings of yours because further reading will clarify many concepts.

    Thank you.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Tanmatras and Mahabhutas

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Yet before we list out the groups, a better understanding of this word tattva is needed.

    tattva = true or real state, some say That-ness; It is made up of tad and tvam , 'that (art) thou' as we find in vedānta one of the 4 mahā-vākya-s ( great sayings or great truths).
    This tattva is the the essence or substance of anything.

    Some look at it like this: tata-tva. we then have:
    • tata = chiefly; the 2nd derivation of this is extended , stretched , spread , diffused , expanded
    • tva = one and can also mean several at the same time
      • it can also me 'thy'
    So this tata-tva can mean the chief one, or the one that is extended, spread out as many.

    Without too much help we can see the implications and value to this word tattva. It is the essence, the real state of anything.

    If we look at an object we can hold in our hands we are starting with pṛthvī sometimes spelled as pṛthivī (earth) - this word does not only mean ~earth~ but comes from prath. Prath is 'to appear' to come to 'light' ' to occur in the mind'. If one thinks about it for a moment all the other tattva-s appear or come to light in the earth ( or material level of objects and things).

    Earth , said another way is the culmination of all the other tattva-s coming into existence as an object that will 'occur in one's mind' - that is, be perceived.

    So if we start from earth and work backwards all the other tattva-s reside in it until the arrival of the most refined tattva of all - Being. Without Being no other tattva is possible.

    Consider an apple. It cannot exist without the mahābhūta of ākāśa or space. Space provides avakāśa or the quality 'to make room, space' for things to exist. No space , no things, no creation.

    Yet one must ask, what allows ākāśa or space it exist ? What is more fundamental then this ? This is how great our seers (ṛṣi-s) are - to be able to see at this most refined state. Finer and finer qualities or essence ( sāraḥ ) of all things till the ultimate thing cannot be surpassed. That of Being (or parama-śiva) which is their true tattva.

    iti śiva
    Last edited by yajvan; 26 July 2014 at 06:18 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Tanmatras and Mahabhutas

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namaste


    Some groupings ( gaṇa or varga) of these tattva-s.
    Some see the tattva-s as manifest and unmanifest ( vyāvahātika + pāramārthika ).
    Without extending my poetic licence too far, this would be classified as pure and impure. Now why would that be ?

    The unmanifest is perfectly pure without a taint of relativity in it - that is, perfectly stainless, quality-ness, unbounded in nature. The manifest would be considered impure. But this word carries some negitivity , no ? Impure (aśuddha) here means co-mingled; the co-mingling with other tattva/elements and not just pure Being.


    So, it's important to have a ~time out~ here. The ideas are offered to get our minds around very subtle subject matter. The wise use these terms to compare and contrast ideas for our comprehension. For the human experience we can comprehend pure and impure; yet for the muni who resides in fullness or pūrṇapātrapratibhaṭa ( fullness or a full vessel i.e. overflowing , supreme) there is nothing other then Being, and so purity is everything and everywhere and not segmented at all. This is the final truth¹, yet to us we live in diversity and see contradictions to this, opposites every day. With that POV in mind let's continue.

    Another classification of the 36 tattva-s we find in śaivism is the following:
    • 24 ātmā tattva-s - in this use of ātmā it is inferring 'body' and infers dhṛti or firmness . We can think of it of those tattva-s that make up the universe inside and outside of us.
    • 7 vidyā tattva-s or the knowledge oriented tattva-s ( vidya also means finding, gaining)
    • 5 śiva tattva-s or the pure (śuddha) tattva-s
    _____________________________
    A total of 36 tattva-s


    Let's look at the ~classical~ groupings within śaivism ; the śāṁkhya groupings are inherent within these groups, but do not have the same definitions for a few line item tattva-s ( more on this later).
    • panca mahābhūta-s or the 5 great tattva-s (bhūta = that which exists, element, true , real)
    • panca tanmātra-s or the 5 subtle elements ( tanmātra= only a trifle , subtle)
    • panca karmendriya-s or the 5 organs of action
    • panca jnānendriya-s or the 5 organs of cognition
    • antaḥkaraṇa-s or the internal organs ( mind, intellect, ego)
    • prakṛti - roughly means ~nature~
    • puruṣa - note this does not hve the same deifintion we find within the śāṁkhya system and will be explained later.
    • ṣaṭ kancuka-s or the 6 coverings ( other schools sometimes call out 5)
    • śuddha tattva-s - the pure tattva-s ( 5 are called out)
    _____________________________________________________

    36 tattva-s wthin the śuddha and aśuddha realm of tattva-s


    We now have all the 'ingredients' to carry on the conversation.

    iti śiva

    words
    • the truth is this: the answer to this is offered by brahmaṛṣi gauḍapāda-ji . He informs us of the truth from his level of enlightement. This is offered in the māṇdūkaya- kārikā some call it the māṇdūkaya-kārikā of gauḍapāda.
      The supreme truth is this: there is no birth and no dissolution, no aspirant to liberation and no liberated, and no one who is in slavery (mādūkayakārikā, II, 32).
    • dhṛti - firmness ; holding , seizing , keeping , supporting
    Last edited by yajvan; 27 July 2014 at 12:10 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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