Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 51

Thread: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

  1. #11
    Join Date
    December 2012
    Posts
    552
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Besides, Shri Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita, " Only ignorants see me as a person
    Then, it seems, all the devotees of the Lord in Vaikuntha and in Goloka are just fools because they see Him as a person.

    regards

  2. #12
    Join Date
    June 2013
    Location
    Maharashtra
    Posts
    570
    Rep Power
    1125

    Smile Re: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Namaste


    Then, it seems, all the devotees of the Lord in Vaikuntha and in Goloka are just fools because they see Him as a person.

    regards
    Namaste

    No they are not fools ! They have just attained ' salokata' mukti. They are controlled by vishnu, all pervading tattva and according scriptures, sayujyata is the supreme state of consciousness where only all pervading ( vishnu) tattva dwells, where bhagavan and devotee are perfectly united with each there in their infinite consciousness, where bhagavan doesn't remain as bhagavan, devotee doesn't remain a devotee, where only absolute happiness flows, where experiencing, experiener are one, where there is no oneness nor any duality ! ( Even lord krishna can't describe it. It's beyond words) Upanishads don't accept vaikuntha or any loka as a final moksh. If i am wrong, correct me with well interpreted Upanishad's statements.

    Isn't this weird ? Puranas describe vaikuntha, how it is, what is there, in very details. On the other side, Upanishads say bramhan or state of bramhan can not be described. It is beyond our imagination and mind. It is beyond all dualities. No one can see it, no one can describe it ! The one who says I know bramhan , doesn't know it ! Then in what way we can accept vaikuntha as a final moksh ? No any scripure of Hindu dharma describes what is bramhan ! They have just given a hint for bramhan ... So if we accept vaikuntha as a final moksha, then it seems, all Upanishad's authors are fools. Because they said bramhan can not be described and they didn't describe vaikuntha, which was easily possible to describe at the realised level.

    If you say that vaikuNTha has to be eternal nevertheless, because it is
    the home of vishNu, you
    have to first recognize that such a conception of the eternality of vaikuNTha is heavily dependent on the tattva that vishNu is eternal. Now you also have to grant that vishNu is all-pervading. So, logically speaking, the entire universe is, in one sense, vaikuNTha. Talking about the eternality or otherwise of vaikuNTha then becomes equivalent to deliberating on whether the universe is a permanent and eternal entity or not.


    For devotees, this world becomes vaikuntha itself ! Then what is the special importance on specific loka ?

    Dhanyavad, jai shri krishna rukmini !
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 18 October 2013 at 02:18 AM.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    December 2012
    Posts
    552
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    If i am wrong, correct me with well interpreted Upanishad's statements.
    If you're convinced in the Advaita standpoint it's not my job to convince you otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Isn't this weird ? Puranas describe vaikuntha, how it is, what is there, in very details. On the other side, Upanishads say bramhan or state of bramhan can not be described. It is beyond our imagination and mind. It is beyond all dualities. No one can see it, no one can describe it ! The one who says I know bramhan , doesn't know it ! Then in what way we can accept vaikuntha as a final moksh ? No any scripure of Hindu dharma describes what is bramhan ! They have just given a hint for bramhan ... So if we accept vaikuntha as a final moksha, then it seems, all Upanishad's authors are fools. Because they said bramhan can not be described and they didn't describe vaikuntha, which was easily possible to describe at the realised level.
    Oh I see, it is not that the authors of the Upanishads were fools, but it is that authors of the Puranas were fools. Isn't this weird? ...
    Authors of the Puranas said that the state of liberation in Vaikuntha is final and ultimate. Isn't this weird?

    regards

  4. #14
    Join Date
    June 2013
    Location
    Maharashtra
    Posts
    570
    Rep Power
    1125

    Re: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Namaste


    If you're convinced in the Advaita standpoint it's not my job to convince you otherwise.



    Oh I see, it is not that the authors of the Upanishads were fools, but it is that authors of the Puranas were fools. Isn't this weird? ...
    Authors of the Puranas said that the state of liberation in Vaikuntha is final and ultimate. Isn't this weird?

    regards
    Namaste , does Upanishads support vaikuntha or any loka as a final moksha ? Upanishads have much authorities than puranas .Puranas should be understood as per vedopanishad not by the way we understand or like !

  5. #15
    Join Date
    December 2012
    Posts
    552
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Namaste , does Upanishads support vaikuntha or any loka as a final moksha ? Upanishads have much authorities than puranas .Puranas should be understood as per vedopanishad not by the way we understand or like !
    Atharva Veda mentions the Puranas and Itihasas. Chandogya Upanishad says that Puranas and Itihasas are the fifth Veda. The authority of Puranas and Itihasas like Mahabharata and Ramayana is not questionable.

    Principal Upanishads and Bhagavad gita do not call the abode of the Lord or the spiritual world by the name Vaikuntha, but just as "abode". This abode of the Lord is final moksha or liberation.

    regards

  6. #16
    Join Date
    June 2013
    Location
    Maharashtra
    Posts
    570
    Rep Power
    1125

    Re: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Namaste


    Atharva Veda mentions the Puranas and Itihasas. Chandogya Upanishad says that Puranas and Itihasas are the fifth Veda. The authority of Puranas and Itihasas like Mahabharata and Ramayana is not questionable.

    Principal Upanishads and Bhagavad gita do not call the abode of the Lord or the spiritual world by the name Vaikuntha, but just as "abode". This abode of the Lord is final moksha or liberation.

    regards
    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Namaste


    Atharva Veda mentions the Puranas and Itihasas. Chandogya Upanishad says that Puranas and Itihasas are the fifth Veda. The authority of Puranas and Itihasas like Mahabharata and Ramayana is not questionable.

    Principal Upanishads and Bhagavad gita do not call the abode of the Lord or the spiritual world by the name Vaikuntha, but just as "abode". This abode of the Lord is final moksha or liberation.

    regards
    Namaste bramha jijnasu,

    Upanishadas don't use any loka or abode word. It uses padam word or sometimes bhava, which is indicating towards state of bramhan or nature of bramhan ,otherwise Upanishads would have described moksha as living in loka ..

    Besides, in vaikuntha, soul ( devotee ) gets spiritual body. But Upanishads don't define soul has a spiritual body. It defines soul as nondual and omnipresent and the thing other than nondual thing, has not any absolute existence.

    Mandukya Upanishad ,essence of all other Upanishads, starts with " ayam atma bramh " ( this atma is verily bramhan).

    Realising ' vasudevam sarvam ' is the Krishnamay state! There are many souls is an illusion, only our dearest krishna exists everywhere, equally !


    Dhanyavada, jai srimati rukmini krishna !
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 19 October 2013 at 09:11 AM.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    December 2012
    Posts
    552
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Upanishadas don't use any loka or abode word. It uses padam word or sometimes bhava, which is indicating towards state of bramhan or nature of bramhan ,otherwise Upanishads would have described moksha as living in loka ..
    I was told otherwise.
    Upanishads and Rig Veda 1.22.20 use the expression viṣṇoḥ padam which can be taken as "Lord Vishnu's abode".
    Katha Upanishad 1.3.9 says that viṣṇoḥ padam is a place yogi reaches at the end of his journey! -- which means that it is a place.
    See here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe15/sbe15012.htm

    Katha Upanishad 1.3.8 says that yogi "reaches indeed that place, from whence he is not born again"!!! -- which means that reaching this place he achieved liberation (moksha)!

    A similar verse is in the Bhagavad-gītā 8.21 (http://vedabase.net/bg/8/21/en) :

    "That which the Vedāntists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns — that is My supreme abode."

    This abode of the Lord is the supreme destination to be achieved and it is described as "that place from which, having attained it, one never returns" which means that reaching this place a yogi achieved liberation (moksha)!

    regards

  8. #18

    Re: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

    Namaste

    "tad dhAma paramam mama"

    are Shri KrshNa BhagvAn's exact words. THAT dhAma (abode) of Mine is the highest. DhAma is spiritual, so can it be a "geographical" location? OK, not geo becs geo is earth. So, can it be a spatial location?

    dhAma is a state of being, a state of consciousness, in which the conscious could be in the sweet company of My Sweet Lord ... WHERE?
    Where the mind travels.

    So, the MIND is the one that travels. Travels? Wanders? Resides? Rests? Permanently, temporarily,

    This body is on earth as of today. Fingers are at the keyboard. Part of the mind is on HDF as I post, and rest of "me" is on ShvetadvIpa

    You will never be able to find this shvetadvIpa (white island) on any map.
    Because it is beyond time and space!
    It is where my Lord dwells, and therefore it is where I dwell.

    We decide what kadambas and kalpatarus to plant there. Well, He decides, fine. At the center of which is

    goloka vRndAvan
    bhUlok vRndAvan
    mAnas vRndAvan

    vRndAvan : A state of being, a state of consciousness facilitated by the Grace of the Lord of the Heart - Shri KRshNa Govind VAsudeva

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Katha Upanishad 1.3.9 says that viṣṇoḥ padam is a place yogi reaches at the end of his journey! -- which means that it is a place
    Allow me to reconstruct this:
    Katha Upanishad 1.3.9 says that vishnoh padam is a state that the Supreme Super Higher consciousness reveals to the lower local mind at the end of the journey.

    Please note that the Supreme Consciousness, VAsudev did not have to "reach" anywhere, but He is so graceful, so kind, so compassionate that He reveals this state of being to the mind-heart.

    A similar verse is in the Bhagavad-gītā 8.21 (http://vedabase.net/bg/8/21/en)
    "That which the Vedāntists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns — that is My supreme abode."
    That which the vedantins describe as unmanifest infallible, ... supreme destination, that state or level of consciousness from which, having attained it, one never returns [to the lower mundane consciousness] - that is My supreme abode.

    There, at a point, VAsudev the Supreme consciousness, may leave the sAdhak-mind that has fallen in a state of samAdhi, as it is ; smile to Himself, and tip-toe out - just like the mother who notices her baby has fallen asleep while playing, smiles at the sight of the beautiful sleeping baby, gently puts the blanket on him, turns the light out.

    If the baby wakes up, that Parabramhan VAsudeva cradles him once again and their conversations interactions begin, till the baby goes back into samAdhi.

    Here, this samAdhi is very special, becs it is of the baby who knows back of her mind that mother is there. Sometimes the baby holds the mother's sari in a tight grip in a cute tiny fist as s/he sleeps.


    Om ParaBramhaNe ParamAtmane TamAlashyAmalAkRtaye PItavAsase Tribhangalalita KamalAnAthaya GovindAya Shri KRshNAya namo namah:
    Last edited by smaranam; 20 October 2013 at 09:20 AM. Reason: kadambas - typo
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  9. #19

    Re: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

    shriyah: kAntAh: kAntah: parama-purushah: kalpataravo
    dhrumA bhumis chintAmaNi-gaNa-mayi toyam amrutam
    kathA gAnam nATyam gamanam api vaMshi priya-sakhI
    chidAnandam jyotih: param api tad AsvAdyam api cha

    sa yatra kshirAbdhih: shravati surabhibhyas cha su-mahAn
    nimeshArdhAkyo vA vrajati na hi yatrApi samayah
    bhaje shvetadvIpam tam aham iha golokam iti yam
    vidantas te santah: kshiti virala-chArAh: katipaye ~ ...

    I worship that transcendental seat, known as Śvetadvīpa where as loving consorts the Lakṣmīs in their unalloyed spiritual essence serve the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa as their only lover; where every tree is a transcendental purpose tree; where the soil is the purpose gem, all water is nectar, every word is a song, every gait is a dance, the flute is the favorite attendant, effulgence is full of transcendental bliss and the supreme spiritual entities are all enjoyable and tasty, where numberless milk cows always emit transcendental oceans of milk; where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a very few self-realized souls in this world.

    - Shri Shri Bramha-saMhItA 5.56
    (pronounce as sauMhItA. M is the transliteration for the anusvAr - the dot/bindu above the consonent/vowel, as in hauMsa, kauMsa, vauMshi, auMsha, sauMhItA although written as haMsa, kaMsa, vaMshI, aMsha, saMhItA)
    Last edited by smaranam; 21 October 2013 at 09:40 AM. Reason: anusvAr - elaboration of; added translation
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  10. #20
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    223

    Re: BG 4.16 - Is the Supreme originally manifest or originally formless?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    shriyah: kAntAh: kAntah: parama-purushah: kalpataravo
    dhrumA bhumis chintAmaNi-gaNa-mayi toyam amrutam
    kathA gAnam nATyam gamanam api vaMshi priya-sakhI
    chidAnandam jyotih: param api tad AsvAdyam api cha

    sa yatra kshirAbdhih: shravati surabhibhyas cha su-mahAn
    nimeshArdhAkyo vA vrajati na hi yatrApi samayah
    bhaje shvetadvIpam tam aham iha golokam iti yam
    vidantas te santah: kshiti virala-chArAh: katipaye ~ ...

    - Shri Shri Bramha-saMhItA 5.56
    (pronounce as sauMhItA. M is the transliteration for the anusvAr - the dot/bindu above the consonent/vowel, as in hauMsa, kauMsa, vauMshi, auMsha, sauMhItA although written as haMsa, kaMsa, vaMshI, aMsha, saMhItA)
    It is of great import to the reader that the author provides the translations for the śloka-s that are offered i.e. beyond the transliteration. The reader which may be new to HDF will appreciate this.

    iti śiva




    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. The Supreme Personality...
    By yajvan in forum God in Hindu Dharma
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 30 October 2013, 08:26 PM
  2. Ancient Egyptian Religion
    By Tyrannos in forum Other Dharma Traditions
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 07 December 2011, 11:42 PM
  3. Shri Rudra - Sankarshana Moorti Swaroopo ??
    By giridhar in forum Shaiva
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10 July 2011, 06:27 AM
  4. What is the goal of life?
    By atanu in forum Philosophy
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 07 September 2010, 03:44 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •