Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 24 of 24

Thread: Why Does Lord Shri Krishna Refer to Women and Vaishyas As People of Low Origins?

  1. #21

    Re: Why Does Lord Shri Krishna Refer to Women and Vaishyas As People of Low Origins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banarasi View Post
    Namaskaarams:

    Personally, I am inclined to go with the earlier post of Philoraptor which he did not emphasize and maybe has gone unnoticed.

    Instead of:

    O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth--women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach the supreme destination.

    I would go with:

    O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth, women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach the supreme destination.

    The comma after lower birth is what I think is the correct interpretation (instead of the hyphen indicated) as Philoraptor mentions in his earlier post. I think this is correct also because of "api" repeated twice. If it was citing examples, I do not think Shri Krishna would have had to say "also= api" twice.

    I think the proper interpretation would have to keep in mind Shri Krishna's leelas and his gentle heart does not show any disgust/revulsion to women or vaishyas and IMHO, he refers to them because they may have been traditionally seen as weaker. Thus, the "Deen Dayal" would bestow special kindness to to them. In fact, if we consider the following:

    1. Shri Krishna himself was brought up by the vaishyas and they are the ones who enjoyed him the most.
    2. As far as my severely limited understanding goes, There are no equals to the Gopis among Krishna bhakts and his great brahman friend Uddhav was sent to the Gopis to understand bhakti.
    3. Even if we can think of the Gopis as being Kishoris, surely we cannot ignore Shri Krishna's extreme respect and fondness for Draupadi. I cannot imagine Shri Krishna referring to her as "papa - yoninah"
    4. Vidura - a dasi putra was honored by Krishna above everyone (including the elders and the kulagurus) when he went as a messenger on Pandavas' behalf.

    I think the shloka is apt to forcefully show his affection/mercy for the weaker sections. We have to keep in mind that this discourse is to Arjuna - a foremost skilled warrior to whom precisely the sections mentioned would be the most insignificant.

    Of course, I am no student of Sanskrit and so apologies in advance if I have messed up.

    Jai SitaRam
    Pranams,

    A couple of points should be made in this connection.

    Even if "pApa-yOnayaH" were used conventionally to describe a specific class or gender, it would be immaterial when evaluating a bhakta from such a class. Sri Krishna is favorably inclined even to those great devotees who are redeemed from the most sinful of backgrounds - example: prahLAd son of hiraNyakashipu. Indeed, the fact that there can be "pApa-yOnayaH" in Hinduism, and that The Lord of everyone can relish the devotion of someone from such a sinful background, just illustrates His merciful and accessible nature.

    While it might be appropriate in that context to say that women are generally pApa-yOnayaH, as a matter of culture and etiquette, we should not even consider that when we are talking about great devotee women, i.e. draupadi, kuntI, gopika-strI-s, etc.

    That being said, it appears that while Adi Shankara takes "pApa-yOnayaH" as an adjective describing vaishyas, shUdras, and women, rAmAnuja takes it as a substantive referring to another group of people (presumably outcastes, mlecchas, rAkshasa-s, etc). However, even with this interpretation, the mentioning of vaishya-s, shUdra-s, and women in the same verse as "pApa-yOnayaH" would imply a real or perceived disqualification on the part of the former towards working towards mOkSha.

    That being said, regardless of which interpretation you favor, Sri Krishna's point here is that He can be attained through bhakti by anyone, including those born into unfavorable (thought-to-be-unfavorable) lineages or genders. Such is The Lord we worship!

    Sri Krishna ki Jaya!
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  2. #22

    Re: Why Does Lord Shri Krishna Refer to Women and Vaishyas As People of Low Origins?

    Pranams,

    A couple of points should be made in this connection.

    Even if "pApa-yOnayaH" were used conventionally to describe a specific class or gender, it would be immaterial when evaluating a bhakta from such a class.
    Sri Krishna is favorably inclined even to those great devotees who are redeemed from the most sinful of backgrounds - example: prahLAd son of hiraNyakashipu. Indeed, the fact that there can be "pApa-yOnayaH" in Hinduism, and that The Lord of everyone can relish the devotion of someone from such a sinful background, just illustrates His merciful and accessible nature.

    While it might be appropriate in that context to say that women are generally pApa-yOnayaH, as a matter of culture and etiquette, we should not even consider that when we are talking about great devotee women, i.e. draupadi, kuntI, gopika-strI-s, etc.

    That being said, it appears that while Adi Shankara takes "pApa-yOnayaH" as an adjective describing vaishyas, shUdras, and women, rAmAnuja takes it as a substantive referring to another group of people (presumably outcastes, mlecchas, rAkshasa-s, etc). However, even with this interpretation, the mentioning of vaishya-s, shUdra-s, and women in the same verse as "pApa-yOnayaH" would imply a real or perceived disqualification on the part of the former towards working towards mOkSha.

    That being said, regardless of which interpretation you favor, Sri Krishna's point here is that He can be attained through bhakti by anyone, including those born into unfavorable (thought-to-be-unfavorable) lineages or genders. Such is The Lord we worship!

    Sri Krishna ki Jaya!
    Namaskaaram:

    Philosoraptorji, thanks a lot. Thank you for the clarifications. Unfortunately, this raises some more questions for me. I have bolded the points on which I have questions.

    1. I totally agree with you that all differences would be immaterial in the presence of a bhagavatha or a bhakt.

    2. I was unaware of the interpretations of Shri Shankara and Shri Ramanuja. However, I do have another confusion. If papa-yonayah means low birth/family, would not the woman's brothers also be from the same family and so have the same issues? Or do we take it as 'sinful/bad past life' in this context? (I think that is what you imply, but just checking).
    Of course, I can say that "I agree with Shri Ramanuja but not with Shri Shankara etc." but I would obviously be a fool (and extremely callous) to do so and while I will accept it as it is, I will hopefully reflect and understand the true intent.

    Here, I think (having seen the extreme attachment women have to their family), moksha is indeed a difficult goal for women. In that way women would be further away from liberation and in that case, I can understand why they may be termed as unfortunate. On the other hand, this is a great strength for them when they follow bhagavatas or become bhakts (show affection to Shri Krishna) as attachment to god (or to the guru or someone you consider as god) is for the very fortunate and pati-bhakti is something that becomes an enjoyable duty. I may be way out of my league here and so ladies please forgive me, but I think in their hearts, women do feel this. I have seen very educated and qualified women who delight way more in their husband's successes and self-esteem than their own - of course this is more in India.

    3. Yes, it would be bad to even think of Gopis or any bhakt to be unfortunate and I am extremely sorry to have unintentionally done so. I (subconsciously) had in mind Shri Krishna's advice to the Gopis before Gopikageetam where he asks them to serve their family. I take that advice as Shri Krishna taking the opportunity to address ordinary folks rather than the Gopis themselves. If I understand right, they get confused (as the advice is not for them) and then Skri Krishna has to agree to their request for Rasa Kreeda.

    4. I guess, despite the shortcomings and issues, this age is fortunate as there are things like nama-kirtan and Bhagavatam that equalize and make bhakti approachable.

    Again thanks for all the clarifications and sorry if I have misunderstood/hurt any sentiments.

    Jai SitaRama

  3. #23

    Re: Why Does Lord Shri Krishna Refer to Women and Vaishyas As People of Low Origins?


    Oops! You already answered/explained your view in an earlier post. Sorry for not noticing!

    Jai SitaRama

    What Sri Krishna is referring to here is the traditional view that a birth as a vaishya, shUdra, or woman is due to less sAttvik guNa/karma

  4. #24
    Join Date
    October 2007
    Location
    UAE
    Posts
    142
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Why Does Lord Shri Krishna Refer to Women and Vaishyas As People of Low Origins?

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Pranams,

    That being said, it appears that while Adi Shankara takes "pApa-yOnayaH" as an adjective describing vaishyas, shUdras, and women, rAmAnuja takes it as a substantive referring to another group of people (presumably outcastes, mlecchas, rAkshasa-s, etc). However, even with this interpretation, the mentioning of vaishya-s, shUdra-s, and women in the same verse as "pApa-yOnayaH" would imply a real or perceived disqualification on the part of the former towards working towards mOkSha.

    That being said, regardless of which interpretation you favor, Sri Krishna's point here is that He can be attained through bhakti by anyone, including those born into unfavorable (thought-to-be-unfavorable) lineages or genders. Such is The Lord we worship!

    Sri Krishna ki Jaya!
    That verse only speaks of the glories of prapatti.

    Women of all 4 castes and shUdras have no vedAdhikAra. Vaishyas are not allowed to perform the rite known as "sAtra yajna" and hence are mentioned with women.

    The point is that, when even these women, shudrAs and vaishyas attain Krishna easily by performance of prapatti yoga (which is sarvAdhikAram), there is no excuse for Arjuna (and hence, kshatriyAs and brahmanas) who have the choice of both bhakti yOga and prapatti as viable options for sAdhanas, to refrain from attaining bhagavan.

    It does not diminish anyone here. Krishna makes it abundantly clear that everyone can attain him.
    [CENTER][COLOR="Black"][COLOR="Red"][COLOR="DarkRed"]No holiness rules over my freedom
    No commands from above I obey
    I seek the ruin, I shake the worlds
    Behold! I am blackest ov the black

    Ov khaos I am, the disobediant one
    Depraved son who hath dwelt in nothingness
    Upon the ninth I fell, from grace up above
    To taste this life ov sin, to give birth to the "I"[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

    [B]~ "Blackest Ov the Black" - Behemoth.[/B]

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P-JdwtK1DY[/url] [/CENTER]

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Hindu SamskAra Regulations
    By saidevo in forum New to Sanatana Dharma
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 16 July 2009, 11:12 PM
  2. Caste System
    By coolbodhi in forum Hot Topics
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 06 May 2006, 02:53 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •