View Poll Results: Isn't Bhagvad-Gita's discourse sans 110 interpolations unambiguous?

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Thread: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

  1. #1

    Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    William von Humboldt who wrote seven-hundred verses in praise of the Bhagvad-Gita averred that it is the most beautiful, perhaps the only true philosophical song existing in any known tongue. All the same, the boon of an oral tradition that kept the divine discourse of yore alive for millennia became the bane of the Gita going by the seemingly mundane distortions it had to endure. Strangely it was Sir Edwin Arnold the Englishman who sought to separate the divine wheat from the mundane chaff by branding s23-s27 of ch8 as the ranting of some vedanti in his century old ‘Song Celestial’. While interpreting the Gita in English verse an attempt was made by the author to identify the interpolations in it and codify the same for the benefit of the modern reader. One way to scent the nature of these, if not zero in on every one of them, is to subject the text to the twin tests of sequential conformity and structural economy. Sequential conformity is all about uniformity of purpose sans digression and structural economy but represents the absence of repetitiveness.

    The pundits and the plebeians alike aver that the philosophy of the Gita is the practice of disinterested action. In this context it may be noted that while postulating nishkaama karma, the theory of disinterested action, Krishna was critical of the ritualistic aspects of and the mundane expectations from the Vedic ceremonies (s42 - 46 and s53 of ch.2.). Given that the pristine philosophy of the Gita is to tend man on the path of duty without attachment, the about turn in s9-s16 of Ch.3 that formulate the procedural aspects of the rituals and the divine backing they enjoy cannot stand to either reason or logic. Such contradictory averments attributed to Krishna wherever occur can be taken as interpolations and the same are delved into in this article.

    Next on the agenda is the aspect of structural economy and one finds the similitude of a given content in many a sloka in the same or in a different context throughout the text. Obviously, some of them are interpolations but which were the originals and which are the imitations could be impossible to find out for they smugly fit into the overall structure. Whatever, save lengthening the discourse, they do not belittle the same and fortunately not even tire the reader, thanks to the exemplary charm of Sanskrit, which for the 18th Century British intellectual Sir William Jones ‘is of wonderful structure, more perfect than Greek, more copious than Latin and more exquisitely refined than either.’ Identified here are 110 slokas of deviant character or digressive nature that can be taken as interpolations with reasonable certainty. Readers may like to mark these verses in their Gita and then read it afresh by passing over them for a refreshing experience.

    Besides the interpolations s9-s16 of ch.3, s17, s18 and s24 of the same are clear digressions. Such others in the rest of the chapters wherever they crop up are dealt as follows:

    Chapter - 4: It should not be lost on one that s11’s return of favour by the Lord is juxtaposing to the stated detachment of His as espoused in s14 of the same chapter. On the other hand, s12 that is akin to s20, ch.7, itself an interpolation, and s13 the contentious chaatur varnyam mayaa srustam - do not jell with the spirit of the philosophy. Why hasn't Krishna declared in s 29 ch.9, ‘None I favour, slight I none / Devout Mine but gain Me true’. Slokas 24 to s32 that are of religious/ritualistic nature seem clearly out of context and character. Prior to this seemingly interpolated body of eleven slokas, the nature of the Supreme Spirit and the conduct of those who realize it are dealt with. Thus, the discontinuity in the text brought about by the body of these interpolative slokas would be self-evident. And s34 that advises Arjuna to seek wise counsel is irrelevant in the context of the discourse fashioned to set his doubts at rest in the battlefield itself.

    Chapter-5: S18 avers the Omnipresence of the Supreme in Brahmans, cows, elephants, dogs and dog eaters. This tasteless description could be but an interpolation as it ill behoves Krishna’s eloquence and sophistication of expression seen throughout. Incidentally, the succeeding s19 makes it clear that whoever recognizes Him in all beings attains the Supreme State in life itself. S27-s28 that deal with yogic practices and s29, which asserts the Supreme as the beneficiary of sacrificial rituals, are but interpolation for reasons that bear no repetition.

    Chapter - 6: S10-s17 deal with aspects of ascetic practices which are but square pegs in the round philosophical hole the discourse is and so are interpolations, even going by what is stated in the very opening verse, ‘Forego none if forsake chores / Eye not gain ’n thou be freed’. S41 and s42
    are clearly interpolations not only for affecting the continuity of the text but also for what they contain. S41 would have us that those who perform the asvamedha (ritualistic horse sacrifice) would reach heaven to be born again rich. Likewise, s 42 would have us that, ‘or such would be born in learned homes’.

    Chapter-7: S20-s23 besides affecting the continuity in character of the discourse, would advocate worship of gods for boon seeking that Krishna chastises is s42-s44, ch.2 and that renders them interpolations.


    Chapter – 8: It can be seen that s5 places the cart before the horse. Besides, s9-s14 too are interpolations going by their content that’s out of context. It is worth noting that s1-s4, s6-s8 and s15-s22, if read together would bear an unmistakable continuity of argument that the interpolations deprive. And s22 is a seemingly concluding statement of the Lord that only through un-swerved devotion the Supreme could be reached from which there is no return (s21). Then appear s23 to s27 which if literally taken would imply that if one dies when the moon is on the ascent he would go to heaven and, to hell if it’s other way round. Needless to say, these slokas spelling superstition in an otherwise thought-elevating treatise are but interpolations which Sir Edwin Arnold dismissed as the work of some vedanti and thought it fit, justifiably at that, not to include them in his ‘Song Celestial’. In this connection it may be noted that the relationship between the state in which a person dies and his imminent rebirth is covered in s14 - s15 of c14, which seem to be authentic.

    Chapter -9: S7, that contravenes s15-s16 of ch.8, and which echoes interpolative s18-s19 of the current chapter, is an interpolation. Also s15 of is but a digression to facilitate the interpolations in s16-s21 and s23-s25. What is more, there could be some omissions from the original, given the seemingly incomplete exposition of the promised dharma in s2. Further, in s 30 and s 31, it is said that even a reformed sinner is dear and valuable to Him. Then in s 32 it is stated that women, Vaisyas and Sudras could win His favour through devotion, sounding as if they are all in an inferior league. Leave aside the Lord's averment in many a context in this text that the Supreme Spirit lies in all beings, it is specifically stated in s34 of ch.10 that He symbolizes all that is glorious in woman. Given this, and the background of the interpolations, s32 surely is a case of trespass. S33 of this chapter is but a jointing medium of the
    said obnoxious verse and in itself is patronizing in nature towards the virtuous Brahmans and thus is an interpolation.

    Chapter – 11: Owing to the improbability of their being, s9-s14, make an amusing reading. S3 states that Krishna grants Arjuna the divine sight required to espy His Universal Form. Of course, the ESP that Vyasa granted Sanjaya (s75 ch.18) might have enabled him to monitor the goings on at the battleground in order to appraise the blind king Dhrutarashtra about the same. Thus, only from Arjuna’s averments could have Sanjaya gathered what he was divining of the Universal Form, which obviously was beyond his (Sanjaya) own comprehension. But s10-s14 would have him describe the Universal Form as though he himself was witnessing the same, even before Arjuna utters a word about it. In this context it is worth noting that the Lord made it clear in s52, ‘Ever craved gods ’n angels too / Just to behold what thee beheld’. Thus, the Universal Form that was seen by Arjuna surely was beyond the scope of Sanjaya's ESP and hence, s9-s14 that picture beforehand what Arjuna would witness later on are clear interpolations. Contrast this with the parallel situation in s50-s51, when the Lord reassumes His human form, but handled differently by Sanjaya. The s29 which seeks to emphasize what was already pictured in s28, albeit with not so appropriate a simile, could be but an interpolation.

    Chapter -13: One might notice that s10, advocating asceticism to which Krishna is opposed, doesn't jell with the rest, either contextually or philosophically, and thus should be seen as an interpolation. S22, which states that the Supreme Soul lay in beings as a sustainer, consenter, enjoyer and overseer, contravenes its very nature expostulated in s16-s18, ch.15. Besides, as can be seen, it affects the continuity between s21 and s23 of this chapter. S30, akin to s15 is an irrelevant interpolation.

    Chapter- 14: In this chapter that details the three human proclivities - virtue, passion and delusion- s3, s4 and s19 that deal with the Nature and the Spirit are digressive interpolations.

    Chapter – 15: S9, s12, s13, s14 and s15 being digressions are clearly interpolations.

    Chapter – 16: S19 which implies that the Supreme Spirit condemns to hell those who hate Him is an obvious interpolation that contravenes Krishna’s affirmative statement in s29 ch.9 and other such averred in many a context in this text.

    Chapter-17: S11-s13 that deal with the virtuous, the passionate and the deluded in ritualistic sense and s 23 -28 concerning Om, Tat, Sat and Asat of the Vedic hymns are clear interpolations for reasons the reader is familiar with. However, s7-s10, which deal with the food habits of the virtuous, the passionate and the deluded would pose a problem in determining whether or not they are interpolations. Can eating habits be linked to the innate nature of man in an infallible manner? Perhaps, some future research and analysis might resolve the universality or otherwise of this averment, and till then, it is appropriate to reserve the judgment on these.

    Chapter -18: One can note that s12 breaks the continuity between s11 and s13 with hyperbolic averments and s56 combines what is stated in the preceding and the succeeding slokas, and thus both are seemingly interpolations. S41- s48 that describe the allotted duties of man on the basis of his caste are clearly interpolations. In essence, the discourse till s40 is about the human nature and how it affects man. As can be seen, the duties on caste lines detailed in the said interpolations have no continuity of argument. As in earlier chapters, the text acquires continuity if only these verses are bypassed. S61 avers that the Supreme dwells in humans and deludes them all by his maya. This is contrary to what is stated in s14, c5, ‘It’s his nature but not Spirit / Makes man act by wants induced’. Thus, s61 clearly is an interpolation as it contravenes the neutrality of the Supreme Spirit in the affairs of man affirmed throughout by Lord Krishna.

    For those who may like to see how the Gita reads if the above cited 110 slokas are bypassed, the same are summarized as under.

    Ch. 3: s9 –s18, s24 and s35 (12 slokas); Ch.4: s11 - s 13, s24- s32 and s34 (13 slokas); Ch.5: s18 and s27 -29 (4 slokas) ; Ch. 6: s10-s17 and s41 -s42 (10 slokas) ; Ch.7: s20 –s23 (4 slokas) ; ch.8: s5, s9- s14 and s23-s28 ( 13 slokas) ; Ch.9: s7,s15-s21, s23-s25, and s32-s34 (14 slokas) ; Ch.11: s9- s14 and s29 (7 slokas) ; Ch.13: s10, s22 and s30 (3 slokas) ;Ch.14: s3 -s4 and s19(3 slokas) ; Ch.15: s9 and s12- s15 (5 slokas ); Ch.16: s19 (1 sloka) ; Ch.17: s11- s14 and s23- 28 (10 slokas) and Ch.18: s12, s41-48, s56 and s61(11 slokas ).

    Note: The author’s 590 verse-Bhagvad-Gita: Treatise of self-help sans the above interpolative slokas can be read at Project Gutenberg Self Publishing Press at http://self.gutenberg.org/eBooks/WPL...se%20Self-Help

  2. #2

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Yeah, it's strange how Sanskrit pundits who spoke the language and had a background in vedAnta never figured this out, but only these outsiders whose financial interests are based on disagreeing with established understandings.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  3. #3

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Yeah, it's strange how Sanskrit pundits who spoke the language and had a background in vedAnta never figured this out, but only these outsiders whose financial interests are based on disagreeing with established understandings.
    Madhva (13th century) explicitly notes that multiple recensions of the Mahabharata existed during his time, thereby acknowleding interpolations. That opens the door to interpolations in the Gita, don't you think? He also rejected the entire Valmiki Ramayana as unreliable. Ramanuja did not quote a single word from the Bhagavatam. Phulgendra Sinha has written a text on his idea of the original Gita - The Gita as it was (ISBN-10: 0812690257)

    So, it is just not outsiders. If the outsiders were kept out of it, then -

    1. All the Veda is unauthored
    2. Vyasa authored eighteen large Puranas 5000 years ago and they contain absolutely no spurious material. He had divine vision which let him peek into the future and write about the Buddha, Mauryas, Guptas and Queen Victoria.
    http://lokayata.info
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    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    re:
    Isn't Bhagvad-Gita's discourse sans 110 interpolations unambiguous?

    I am at a loss at to what this conversation/string is about, and what can be extracted from it. Someone please offer me the sight and the points to be considered.

    The notion that the bhāgavad gītā offers 'the practice of disinterested action' is completely foreign to me. I find no dis-interest in any of the words. It is the notion of 'skill in action'. This as I see it, is the nector that can be squeesed out in chapters 1 through 6.

    iti śivaṁ
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Namaste BS Murthy

    I had never heard of this English term disinterested action in context of BG (as was commented by Yajvan) or as you stated is the theory of disinterested action as the translation of “Nishkama karma”, though I always did (or was conveyed to me by others) understand the “path of duty without attachment”, all in relation to Krishna on the Chariot with Arjun. So I decided to research it (I know this was off subject to your comments/theme about interpolations in MB and BG – and I am sad to hear the Madhva rejected the VR, literally the Ramayana - in multiple authorized forms - is a daily devotion for me). Overall, I am curious how, since you seem to have dedicated so much research and thought into this matter – just for my own clarification – are you saying or do you personally believe that there are interpolations in the MB and BG? Bear with me, I am not familiar with such level of scrutiny and I am a bit slow at understanding this, so I am not sure if you believe that there were interpolations or not, I assume you support such analysis otherwise you would not have posted this very lengthy detail (I apologize if I have totally missed the mark on your post, like I say, I have not yet encountered anyone as of yet who brought up such questions in regards to Gita, also English translations I am only familiar with are those such as from Prabhupad, or Jayaram V, and other select Indian/Hindu scholars and Gurus and not those you mention from Wm. v Humboldt or Sir Edwin Arnold. I never read or was introduced, not heard any lecture or discussion from Gurus or saints or realized devotees on these translations. Now, yes I recall the name “Sir Edwin Arnold” on a couple of books I held in my own hands back in my University days – I recall a red h/b cover with bold black letters and the book was about Kali and Tantric practice if I am correct. But I think these renditions of BG are sort of delegated to the past and no one reads them anymore.

    Back to the subject of disinterested action or “Nishkama karma”, I was curious as to if the Sanskrit term used is actually in alignment with an English translation meaning disinterested action.

    Right away, I was finding a different interpretation of Nishkama Karma.

    Sri Swami Sivananda: “The literal meaning of nishkama karma is ‘desireless action’, i.e. selfless action.”
    - (this makes sense to me, also in context of what was being said in the BG. Personally, I am very “action oriented”, and I see both duty and action as one, and duty being selfless duty… )

    Sri Swami Sivananda: “Nishkama Karma Yoga is another name for Karma Yoga, which is one of the main themes of the Bhagavad Gita”
    - (sounds inspiring, and though I perform Bhakti Yoga, I like Karma Yoga in this context)

    Sivananda goes on to note how Sri Ramana Maharshi once “demonstrated nishkama karma” when, when a Telugu pandit asked him about it (for which RM gave no reply), Sri Ramana Maharshi went up a hill (with a few others following him, including the pandit). He picked up a thorny stick on the hill, sat down on the ground and began to pull off the thorns. Eventually the stick was polish clean, and rubbed shinny with a leaf. This took 6 hours to do. At that time a shepherd boy (I assume a cowherd boy or gopa boy) who, it so happened, had lost his staff. RM gave him the stick, which the boy was happy to receive. This is the meaning of nishkama karma.

    Here is one translation of BG Shloka 19, Chapter 3, “Therefore always perform actions expected of you without attachment. For, by performing action without attachment, man attains the highest.”
    - (so this sounds like the most common translations, e.g. action without attachment, and we see Karma Yoga as the Action Yoga and Nishkama Karma as Action that is not attached to desires)

    So isn’t this about selfless action, service that does not seek a selfish motive, that the goal is not a fixation on the personal satisfaction(s) of the one who is doing action to the actionable?

    Isn’t this also a form of Bhakti Yoga? E.g. everything we do as an offering to Devas and Devi, to the Supreme, that our actions are not selfish?

    Om Namah Sivaya

  6. #6

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Quote Originally Posted by shiv.somashekhar View Post
    Madhva (13th century) explicitly notes that multiple recensions of the Mahabharata existed during his time, thereby acknowleding interpolations. That opens the door to interpolations in the Gita, don't you think? He also rejected the entire Valmiki Ramayana as unreliable. Ramanuja did not quote a single word from the Bhagavatam. Phulgendra Sinha has written a text on his idea of the original Gita - The Gita as it was (ISBN-10: 0812690257)

    So, it is just not outsiders. If the outsiders were kept out of it, then -

    1. All the Veda is unauthored
    2. Vyasa authored eighteen large Puranas 5000 years ago and they contain absolutely no spurious material. He had divine vision which let him peek into the future and write about the Buddha, Mauryas, Guptas and Queen Victoria.
    1. P. Sinha's work was discredited years ago. He is not an insider, but rather an academic with Neo-Vedantic leanings.
    2. Madhva did acknowledge interpolations in the Mahabharata in general, but NOT specifically in the Bhagavad-gita. Why would he, since he commented on the entire Gita?
    3. We're talking about the Bhagavad-gita, not the Bhagavatam or Ramayanam, both larger texts with very different issues, and neither of which (unlike the Gita) are considered part of the prasthana-trayi.
    4. Insiders do acknowledge spurious material in the Puranas. Again, that is neither here nor there. Nothing to see here, move along....
    Last edited by philosoraptor; 31 January 2013 at 08:19 PM.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  7. #7

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Why this article at all?
    Firstly, these insertions, besides muddying its pristine philosophy affect the sequential conformity and structural economy of the grand discourse. What is worse, to the chagrin of the majority of the Hindus, some of these legitimize the inimical caste system while upholding the priestly perks and prejudices.
    secondly,the rendition sans 110 interpolations (linked to Project Gutenberg) seeks to restore to the Gita, its original character by ridding it of hundred and ten interpolations, which tend to keep the skeptics away from it.
    Thirdly, the idea of the article is to stimulate one's thought process and not to speculate as to 'how Sanskrit pundits who spoke the language and had a background in vedAnta never figured this out'.
    Fourthly, would the philosoraptor care to tell who are 'the these outsiders whose financial interests are based on disagreeing with established understandings'.
    And fifthly, who are the insiders who vouch for the 'Bhagvad-Gita as it is' that accords preeminence to Brahmans and demeans the so-called lower castes?

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    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Dear B. Sharma Murthy,

    Indologists are very quick to question the integrity of Hindu scriptures based on contrived and far fetched arguments. A graduate of western academics in the area of Indian philosophy has even admitted that he was awarded his PhD not based on the correctness of his theories, but on the fact that no one in the university was knowledgeable enough to disprove his ideas. The Bhagavad Gita has a long track record in the Hindu tradition itself and it's unlikely that a scripture so widely venerated as the Bhagavad Gita could have been unknowingly adulterated. There is a long commentarial tradition going back centuries on the Bhagavad Gita which verifies a strong degree of consistency in the scripture. On top of that, the Bhagavad Gita has been praised in various other sacred scriptures showing that the popularity of the Bhagavad Gita is very ancient. Authors who wanted to give a spin on the Bhagavad Gita have not adulterated this sacrec text, but have chosen to compose their own Gita's. Those who make claims that the Bhavagad Gita is heavily adulterated are nothing more than conspiracy nut jobs and should not be taken seriously.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 01 February 2013 at 03:00 PM.

  9. #9

    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Quote Originally Posted by BS Murthy View Post
    Why this article at all?
    Firstly, these insertions, besides muddying its pristine philosophy affect the sequential conformity and structural economy of the grand discourse. What is worse, to the chagrin of the majority of the Hindus, some of these legitimize the inimical caste system while upholding the priestly perks and prejudices.
    secondly,the rendition sans 110 interpolations (linked to Project Gutenberg) seeks to restore to the Gita, its original character by ridding it of hundred and ten interpolations, which tend to keep the skeptics away from it.
    Thirdly, the idea of the article is to stimulate one's thought process and not to speculate as to 'how Sanskrit pundits who spoke the language and had a background in vedAnta never figured this out'.
    Fourthly, would the philosoraptor care to tell who are 'the these outsiders whose financial interests are based on disagreeing with established understandings'.
    And fifthly, who are the insiders who vouch for the 'Bhagvad-Gita as it is' that accords preeminence to Brahmans and demeans the so-called lower castes?
    Dear "BS" Murthy,

    1) First of all, you have not proven that the Gita is interpolated. There is no older manuscript of the Gita with fewer verses than the currently existing one. The Gita as we know it today is virtually identical across multiple different sampradayas - all the "problem" verses which you do not like are there in all of them. Nor do you have any process even remotely compatible with the scientific method by which to to prove that the Gita is interpolated, especially in the way in which you claim it has been.

    2) The "insiders" who uphold the authority and integrity of the Gita are the very scholars whose writings are the foundation of Vedaantic Hinduism: Adi Shankara, Sridhar Swami, Madhvacharya, Ramanujacharya. And this does not even include the dozens of other commentaries by less well known acharyas like Vallabha, Baladeva, Vishvanatha, Jayatirtha, etc. Is it possible that all of these erudite scholars are wrong, while some outsiders who don't even speak Sanskrit figured out something so earth-shattering about an ancient Sanskrit text that never occurred to any of them? Sure, I guess it's "possible." Is it possible that the moon will implode in the next 2 seconds? Sure, that's also "possible." But neither are probable, especially in the absence of scientific evidence.

    3) The "inimical" caste system upheld by the Gita is in fact the same one upheld by the vedas and upanishads. There are clear references in the chAndogya upaniShad to varNa based on birth which in turn is based on guNa/karma. Similarly, we have the puruSha-sukta upholding the varNAshrama hierarchy even as it metaphorically implies interdependence. Are those interpolated too?

    4) Apropo to #3, your perception of varNAshrama, i.e. that it "demeans the so-called lower castes" is one-sided and childish. To understand a culture, you have to first study the culture according to its own assumptions about reality. You are making the same mistake many Indology critics make, and applying a Western, egalitarian lens through which you make unfounded judgements - a very typical strawman employed by the simple-minded, I might add.

    5) Repetition of unsubstantiated theories of unqualified pseudo-scholars is not evidence of intelligence. If you want to provoke deep thinking, you might start by reading the Gita and the Upanishads whose wisdom it purports to distill for our benefit, and then questioning why these people say what they say. Are they opposed to the theistic elements of the Gita because the Upanishads are non-theistic? No, because the Upanishads are very clear about the Supreme Person who is the basis of everything. Are they then opposed to the theistic elements of the Gita because of their own non-theistic biases? You could be on to something with that one...

    6) I like your handle. It is very well chosen.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse - On interpolations in Bhagvad Gita

    Namaste BS Murthy

    I have an honest question for you, which actually is very pertinent to the demeanor of this discussion.
    Do you think the Upanishads were the works of humans, the verse of men?

    Are they the works of man’s spiritual experiences?
    And which came first, the Bhagavad Gita or the Upanishads?

    I hope you take the time and courtesy to respond.

    Om Namah Sivaya

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