Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 43

Thread: Human Migrations into India

  1. #21

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Namaste all,

    Thanks for the great responses everybody, and it's good to see you posting again Isavasya.

    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    For a complete analysis of genetic compositions of Indians (south Asians), read this article: http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/i...yan_Debate.pdf

    For obvious reasons, I support the Out of India theory. However, if one were to look at the issue objectively, the answer is definitely along the lines of Sanatana Dharma and everything related to Hinduism was discovered in the subcontinent. Were there migrations of different groups over the millenia? Sure. However, those people were NOT "Aryans" or some nonsense these euro-centric quacks keep harping about.

    Ancient India consisted of eastern parts of present-day Iran, all of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal etc. So there may have been people migrating left and right (pun-intended) but the so-called Aryan Invasion Theory is absolute bunk.
    That is a great article and just what I was looking for. Thanks a lot, TTA!

    Jai Sri Ram
    Sanatana Dharma ki Jai!
    Jai Hanuman

  2. #22
    Join Date
    June 2011
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Age
    66
    Posts
    1,674
    Rep Power
    1694

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    Were there migrations of different groups over the millenia? Sure. However, those people were NOT "Aryans" or some nonsense these euro-centric quacks keep harping about.
    "Aryan" has become a dirty word, and the meaning completely changed and corrupted after being co-opted by the Nazis. Originally aryan (note small a, indicating an adjective or noun, not an ethnonym) meant "noble". It had nothing to do with "race" or nationality.

    So there may have been people migrating left and right (pun-intended) but the so-called Aryan Invasion Theory is absolute bunk.
    People have been migrating for 100,000 years and are still migrating. But not to worry, the Aryan "invasion" theory has fallen out of favor; as I said in a previous post, it has already been debunked.

    People can (and do) believe in little grey people, but it doesn't make it true. There's more proof debunking the "invasion" into India than there is proving the existence of little grey men. Yet more people believe in little grey men. Go figure.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  3. #23

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by Minotaur View Post
    Look to historical and comparative linguistics for more information. Sanskrit is an ancient descendant of Proto-Indo-Aryan, which in turn split off from Proto-Indoeuropean. Proto-Indo-Aryan further split into the proto languages that became Persian, Avestan, Pashto, Sanskrit, etc. In fact, the name Iran comes from Aryan. These people became known as the Aryans, who migrated into India, hence the "Aryan invasion", according to historical linguists.

    The Proto-Indoeuropeans were a small group presumed to live in the Black Sea area about 6,000-8,000 years ago. They began migrations southeast, west and northwest to populate south Asia and Europe. Hence the relationships between Sanskrit, Greek, the non-Dravidian languages of India and other Indoeuropean languages. Spoken (not Vedic) Sanskrit in turn evolved into Hindi/Urdi, Gujarati, Marathi, Bengali, etc.
    Namaste,

    This can only be called empirical speculation of linguists. Whatever it is, do we see what it implies ? That the vedic sanAtan (?) dharma "emerged" 6-8000 years ago ?? OR is this suggesting that it was all written down in SaMsRkt later ?

    More important: who acc. to this theory were the sages, Seers, to whom the Vedas were revealed ? Proto-Indo-European ?
    That contradicts our entire Veda-PaurANic history which goes back millenia in time, also considering the lifetime of this earth.

    Or , is it saying that KrushNa-dwAipAyana - veda vyAs wrote stories in his native proto-whatever ?


    praNAm
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  4. #24
    Join Date
    January 2007
    Location
    duhkhalayam asasvatam
    Posts
    1,450
    Rep Power
    92

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Pranam smaranam


    It's all a proto codswallop, linguistic mythology.

    believe that and you believe anything, idea is to fuzz everything so any credit that is rightfully vedas will be shared by us, how can those ignorant fools be clever then us?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    You seem to support the Aryan Invasion/Migration which from the onset is circumspect. No self-respecting Hindu would believe in that as it is a concocted theory to transplant European superiority complex over Indian/Hindu culture.

    As GaneshPrasad already stated, when the British invaded India and looked at the Hindu scriptures, they were blown away by the profundity of the philosophy, language, and the culture of the Hindus. Unable to explain how such profound knowledge could be with a culture of the subjugated, they concocted this hack of a theory to justify their invasion stating that since "Aryans" invaded India several millenia ago

    Look at the source(s) that propound this nonsense called the PIE. There is a lot of new evidence to state that Indian civilization is MUCH older than even the IVC with the discovery of DwArakA off of the Gulf of Khambat in Gujarat. They posit a date of around 7000-9000 BCE. DwArakA was Krishna's city with palaces and advanced architecture. If Krishna lived so long ago, then the dates for all the epics like the MahabhAratA and RAmAyanA must be pushed back even further.

    To dismiss these and other discoveries as "Hindutva" and "Hindu Fascism" as many anti-Hindu wankers do does nothing. The archeological, cultural, scriptural, and astronomical evidence overwhelmingly support the Out of India Theory. Just because westerners can't swallow the fact that Indian/Hindu culture is far superior to theirs doesn't make it untrue or suspect. One of the main goals of Hinduism to have vinaya *; humility. There are far too many westerners who read a translation of the gItA and proclaim themselves as "scholars".

    There is no such thing as "Proto-Indo-European". That is a bastardized version of the Aryan Invasion/Migration Theory and to give it credence is to yet again allow colonial hegemony over Indian culture. That cannot happen and the facts are there to support it.

    If one were to take the fact that languages in other places around the world have similarity to Sanskrit, why can it not be that Sanskrit was spread around the world due to the ubiquity of Hindu culture in various places at various points in history? Hindu philosophy, language, and culture and indigenous to the subcontinent of India. NONE of it, I repeat, NONE of it, was discovered, invented, composed [choose another verb], outside of India. There is no doubt about that.

    To put it more directly, do you believe that any part of the Veda or Hinduism (which includes Sanskrit and Yoga) were composed and/or discovered OUTSIDE of (ancient) India?
    Last edited by satay; 22 June 2011 at 12:40 AM.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    June 2011
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Age
    66
    Posts
    1,674
    Rep Power
    1694

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste,

    This can only be called empirical speculation of linguists. Whatever it is, do we see what it implies ? That the vedic sanAtan (?) dharma "emerged" 6-8000 years ago ?? OR is this suggesting that it was all written down in SaMsRkt later ?

    More important: who acc. to this theory were the sages, Seers, to whom the Vedas were revealed ? Proto-Indo-European ?
    That contradicts our entire Veda-PaurANic history which goes back millenia in time, also considering the lifetime of this earth.

    Or , is it saying that KrushNa-dwAipAyana - veda vyAs wrote stories in his native proto-whatever ?


    praNAm
    There were two versions of Sanskrit: Vedic Sanskrit and Classical Sanskrit. Vedic Sanskrit is the older, and is the language of the Vedas, obviously. Pāṇini structured and codified Vedic Sanskrit into what is Classical Sanskrit, in the 4th century BCE. How far back in time the Vedas say the Earth existed, I don't know. I only know what Christian creationists claim, that the Earth is 6,000 years old. Geology and astronomy have soundly disproved that.

    Vedic Sanskrit is attested to at least 1800 BCE. That's 3800 years ago. But that's when the Vedas were written down. They were orally handed down for probably centuries or milennia before that. The Indus Valley Civilization flourished from 33001300 BCE. It's beginning was 5300 years ago. No one knows what language was spoken by the IVC. And it had to start from something, some time earlier.

    Sooo...

    There's no contradiction between faith and science, except for Christian creationists. It's been proven that the similarities between Latin, Greek, Sanskrit and other Indo-european languages cannot be coincidence. They are unquestionably related and descend from some common ancestor language.

    And it's only speculated that the ancestor language is about 8,000 years old. It could be far older; no one denies that. There are even some linguists (Noam Chomsky, for one) who propose that all languages descend from one called Nostratic (from Latin nostras meaning "ours"), which is even older. No one can prove it though.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  7. #27
    Join Date
    June 2011
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Age
    66
    Posts
    1,674
    Rep Power
    1694

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by TatTvamAsi View Post
    ...
    I was supporting and agreeing with what you said. And there are other people that read these posts, so it's not all about or directed at you. So I did not deserve that tongue-lashing. I find your attack on me indefensible and uncalled-for, not to mention demeaning and insulting. I am not here to insult or denigrate or detract from Hinduism. I am here to learn. I've supported and unequivocally stated the achievements of ancient Indians and Hinduism. But you didn't read those did you?

    And if you refuse to believe that an ancient ancestor language is anything more than bunk, go for it. Please explain all the similarities and regular changes between languages classified as Indo-european if they didn't come from a common ancestor. I never said or implied that the Vedas or Hinduism originated anywhere, much less outside of India. Of course they originated in India. Don't insult MY intelligence.

    I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY.

    And I did say, if you care to read my earlier post, that "invasion" is not a good word. I also said Muller has been debunked; no one takes him seriously. You didn't see that? I also said 'aryan' simply meant noble, that the Nazis co-opted and corrupted it, turning it into a dirty word. But you choose to get defensive and be offended when none is intended. Stop looking for offense where there is none.

    I will be the first to say that Europeans raped the world. They slaughtered millions in the name of religion and in greed. And it wasn't only India they overran and subjugated. Why are Muslims hostile to the west to this day? Do the Crusades come to mind? Who launched the Crusades? The Roman Catholic Church. Where is the Roman Catholic Church. Western Europe!

    Ask Native Americans of North, Central and South America how many millions of their people were slaughtered by Europeans. Ask an Aztec, if you can find one who speaks Nahuatl. Oh that's right, the Spaniards (there's those Europeans again) made the language virtually extinct.

    I live on the continent where millions of people who wanted nothing more than to live in peace with the land and Nature were slaughtered. So don't preach to me about the evils of the Europeans. I already know it. Again, I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY.

    Clearly I am not welcome here by some people; is it because I am not Indian, and therefore not a true Hindu? Is it because my ancestors were those low-down, no-good, dirty rotten Europeans? Come right out and tell me I am not welcome, and I will read and learn and say nothing more. But it will say more about you as a Hindu than it does about me having European ancestry. In any case, I did not deserve that dressing down.

    I wish the best to you that life has to offer.




    Btw, I reported your post for being rude, argumentative and a strawman ("putting words in my mouth").
    Last edited by satay; 22 June 2011 at 12:41 AM.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  8. #28
    Join Date
    January 2007
    Location
    duhkhalayam asasvatam
    Posts
    1,450
    Rep Power
    92

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Pranam Minotaur

    Quote Originally Posted by Minotaur View Post

    Vedic Sanskrit is attested to at least 1800 BCE. That's 3800 years ago. But that's when the Vedas were written down. They were orally handed down for probably centuries or milennia before that.
    You see this is why i have a problem with academic study, they quote as if it proven, if i were to believe this then i have to question Vyasdev. he is the one who is attested to have written the shastra. to decipher any knowledge one has to consult the origin, the shastra, what they say. they inform me due to imminent on set of Kali yug the people will have short memory thus need to write them down.this was during the time off mahabharat
    it is good to notice the oral tradition still flourish, alive and kicking

    The Indus Valley Civilization flourished from 33001300 BCE. It's beginning was 5300 years ago. No one knows what language was spoken by the IVC. And it had to start from something, some time earlier.

    Sooo...

    There's no contradiction between faith and science,
    there is a gulf of difference between science and Vedas,
    5300 years are mere drop in a ocean if you consider the 4 Yuga it speaks and the time scale.


    except for Christian creationists. It's been proven that the similarities between Latin, Greek, Sanskrit and other Indo-european languages cannot be coincidence. They are unquestionably related and descend from some common ancestor language.

    And it's only speculated that the ancestor language is about 8,000 years old. It could be far older; no one denies that. There are even some linguists (Noam Chomsky, for one) who propose that all languages descend from one called Nostratic (from Latin nostras meaning "ours"), which is even older. No one can prove it though.
    similarities means nothing and speculation even less. in the absence of any trace of speculated 8000 year old language it is even absurd to think about it. We learn from Vedas the Sanskrit is Language of the devas, they are our ancestors, Sanskrit is sanskrit, Latin is latin it is best leave it to that.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    June 2011
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Age
    66
    Posts
    1,674
    Rep Power
    1694

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Minotaur



    You see this is why i have a problem with academic study, they quote as if it proven, if i were to believe this then i have to question Vyasdev. he is the one who is attested to have written the shastra. to decipher any knowledge one has to consult the origin, the shastra, what they say.

    they inform me due to imminent on set of Kali yug the people will have short memory thus need to write them down.this was during the time off mahabharat
    it is good to notice the oral tradition still flourish, alive and kicking

    there is a gulf of difference between science and Vedas,
    5300 years are mere drop in a ocean if you consider the 4 Yuga it speaks and the time scale.
    Yes, the timescales of the yuga are Satya-Yuga 1,728,000 years; Treta-Yuga 1,296,000 years; Dwapara-Yuga 864,000 years; Kali-Yuga 432,000 years (I try to do my homework and learn). I have no problem believing that, nor that Brahma began creation 8 billion years ago.

    That's a little more than half the time science says the universe has existed, and twice as long as the Earth is said to exist. I can believe that the Earth is much older than science says it is, and that the universe is younger than science says. It's not that much of a contradiction.

    But the important question is: when did Vyasa live? Why do you have to question Vyasa? I don't question that he wrote down the Vedas. He took one revelation and broke it into four. But what was the yuga in which he lived? And in what yuga were the Vedas revealed? Those are the important questions for me to help me understand what you believe. I'm open-minded enough, despite what some people may think.

    As I've commented before, even the late Carl Sagan was impressed with the relative accuracy of Hindu cosmology and time scales. So where is the contradiction? If anything science supports Scripture.

    Kali yuga is said to have begun on Feb. 18 or January 23, 3102 BCE, depending on the Julian or Gregorian calendar. The Mahābhārata is said to have had its origins around 900 BCE. Now, did Vyasa reveal it orally, or begin writing it down at that time? I can't find anything.

    So then, Kali yuga did not begin in 3102 BCE as per our calendar? If Kali yuga began in 3102 BCE, and its duration is 432,000 years, it will end in 428,898 CE. That, I understand is when Lord Krishna will be re-born, or Kalki will come.

    As far as language? No one knows. No one was there. Maybe Sanskrit is the mother tongue. But the peoples of India came from somewhere and did not come into existence out of nowhere, just as the Australian Aborigines came from somewhere. On the point of language and human origins, I said once before we have to agree to disagree. There's nothing wrong with that.

    I've said before and will continue to say it: I respect your beliefs, but you need to respect mine also, though not necessarily accept them. Even the learned scholars and sages have different interpretations and don't always agree. That's the richness and beauty of Sanātana Dharma.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  10. #30
    Join Date
    June 2010
    Location
    Kolkata
    Posts
    834
    Rep Power
    491

    Re: Human Migrations into India

    There might be more to the origin of Hinduism in South of India than in North. Again there might be more to origin of many languages (we have today) from Tamil than others.

    Though I am from Bengal but the DNA flow, the Swaraswati-Indus-Ganges trail, the incomplete alphabets of Tamil lead me to think in a different way than the Westerners want me to think.

    Check for Gulf of Cambay discovery in 2000 by my Institute which present Govt of India did not want to pursue. Artifacts from there are huge and dates back to 12000 BC. Check the scripts of Tamil alphabets and you may be faced with some questions.

    The penisular India is still to be discovered - particularly the submerged areas. Even in Mahabalipuram there are sunken temples and lots of structures submerged in the sea.

    See Milne's chart for inundation and you will find how far India has shrunk.

    As people moved from South to North the languages evolved (with influence from others also) more and more and at Sanskrit level, it was fully evolved. Then the derivatives came. even Tamil borrowed a few alphabets from sanskrit.

    Out of millions of years, we have only some specks of discoveries. The history is too deep to be fully deciphered by these specks.

    Love and best wishes

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •