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Thread: Mukthi and self-realiazation

  1. #11
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    Smile Re: Mukthi and self-realiazation

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrut View Post
    There is philosophical disagreement whether vaikunTha is destroyed or not.
    It is interesting to note that even in Bhagavata Purana there is not explicit mention of eternality of Vaikuntha Loka. It is considered as Salokata Moksha. But we have Vedanta. Vedanta says that everything which have form gets destroyed at final dissolution or after realisation of Brahman. The support is as Vedanta doesn't give any exception for this and Vaikuntha has a form as it has doors to enter. Vaikuntha is a sport of god Vishnu by his Maya. Devotees themselves created this Vaikuntha.

    The lOka or pada or dhAma is explained by vaiSNava AcArya-s as jyOti which means a state of consciousness (as mAdhva says in his gItA bhASya. mAdva further goes on to quote nArada purANa in support of his explanation of the word padam)
    Shukadeva himself declares in concluding chapters of Bhagavata Purana [12.5.11] that self itself is the Absolute Abode. So I think, there's nothing to argue on this.

    Adi Sankara in his prabOdh sudhAkara has quoted some verses from bhAgavat purANa. He says that each bramhANDa has it's own trinity - brahma, viShNu and maheSa / Sambhu.
    Interesting, I thought that Ai Shankara never commented on Bhagavata Purana. But I have one question- Why Shankaracharya never mentioned Bhagavata Purana in Upanishada & Gita Bhashya ?

    Interestingly Adi Sankara in pra. su. goes on to say that Krishna is the descend of this very paramAtmAn i.e. paramAtmAn taking a particular form and trinity is under his sway.
    Yes, Sant Eknatha and Dnyaneshwara says the same. They say : Just as there is no difference between between Moon and its disc, there's no diffference between Brahman and Krishna. Paramatma hold a form through his own Maya. The defination of Ishwara is Holder/Ruler of Maya.

    He also says that krishNa is his ISTa devatA
    That's why I call him Advaitian Vaishnawa. He was a clone of Sant Dnyaneshwar.

    Advaita supports vivarta vAda and not pariNAm vAda.
    What's Vivarta Vada ? Requesting to explain me.


    Infact one of the mukti-s mentioned in bhAgavat is sarupya. Perhaps someone can explain what exactly it is.
    All Muktis are mentioned by Bhagavata Purana. No doubt , Sayujyata/Kaivalya is the highest Moksha. Because Shukadeva himself declared in Bhagavata Purana ( 12.5.11) - "The aim of all Vedanta is the unity of Atma and Brahman and this is also narrated for the same reason. The goal of this Purana is Kaivalya Moksha." [From this we have concluded that Kaivalya is nothing but the unity of Atma and Brahman.]

    Another quote from padma Purana:

    In second adhyaya of bhagavatam mahatmya ,

    Narada muni says:

    सत्यदित्रीयुगे बोधवैरग्यी मुक्तीसाधकी
    कली तु केवला भक्तिर्ब्रम्हसायुज्यकरीनी ।।

    Meaning =
    In satya dvapar and treta yuga there were knowledge and detachment to attain liberation but in kaliyuga only bhakti(devotion) can give bramhasayujya mukti (ie. unity of Brahman & Atma).

    From this we came to know that bhakti is not the highest goal as some people think and sayujyata is the final supreme state .Devotion of lord krishna in oneness with him is the highest. Because only such devotion gives us the highest bliss bramhan.


    Ther's no difference between Kaivalya and Sayujyata. Kaivalya is the state of truth where there is no second.

    Read how Sant Eknatha describes four types of Moksha. It's really beautiful. Read this :

    In bhagavat puran, Lord krishna says: My devotees surely, without mistake come to me only.

    Those who have some personal aim, some selfish desire in the worship they do for me, have
    to remain satisfied with the fruit of their desire which is as a Law given to them by me. But those who are unselfish reach total unity with me.

    I always remove the desires of my devotees by fulfilling them once for all and make them
    unselfish and then only I, the Supreme Person take them to my abode.

    O Uddhava, it was in this way that fulfilling the sexual desires of Gopis I made them free of
    that bondage, the desire which binds everybody, and gave them Sayujjya Liberation.

    Without verifying whether I practised debauchery with them or I killed out their very desires, ignorant people criticize my behaviour and accuse me of adultery.

    If my devotees like Salokata Liberation I take them to Vaikuntha. If my devotee wants
    Sameepata, I have the pleasure of being their friend.

    O Uddhava, as I like you because I want to talk friendly private things, sweet things in my
    mind with you, so, similarly I love that devotee to have any time the sweetest dialogue.

    If my devotee wants Saroopata, I give him four arms and give him the lotus etc and make his
    as beautiful as dark cloud,

    I give him crown, ear-rings, waist-band, yellow apparel with golden border, rings around
    ankles, Kaustubh gem.

    The shape of the body, virtues with their signs, courage, valour, serenity are also given,
    which are similar to my ornaments, and he appears just like me in all respects.

    If Laxmi, my spouse would look at us both, she would not be able to recognize me separately. My servants stop in their service because they cannot find out who is the devotee and who is the Lord -, myself.

    The attendant who holds umbrella over my head is also confused if my devotee is with me,as to who is his Lord and who is the devotee. And the man who uses feathered fan (Chawri)
    cannot make out whom he has to serve.

    Brahma and other deities come to bow before me but they also cannot identify me and this
    devotee.

    We cannot know which is the first candle and which is the second candle lit by the flame of
    one candle, similarly when the devotee attains SAROOPATA (identical appearance), others
    cannot make out me separately.

    Just as the image in the mirror being exactly similar to the object in front of it, we feel that
    the image is itself the object, Saroopata is such similarity!

    (Though the Lord gives this Saroopata to the devotee, he does not give him the Shreevatsa
    sign, which is the symbol of the kick of the Brahmin Bhrugu).

    The Lord Vishnu says � I have no power to give that imprint of the foot of the Brahmin on my chest to others. Only Brahmins can do so. If the devotee holds with faith in the heart, the feet of the Brahmin, he will get the sign by the grace of the Brahmin.

    In this Saroopata state, the only difference is �Shreevatsa� imprint. He who has this is the Lord and the other is the devotee.

    Though �Saroopata� state is gained there is still the notion of duality as �This is God and
    That is his devotee�.


    So as long as this notion remains in the mind of the devotee, the term Saroopata is not yet fully applicable. So long as the consciousness does not grasp the essential unity, the devotee
    does not enjoy the highest bliss, the highest joy.

    So wise devotee therefore does not seek only Saroopata. He prays for the final state of
    Sayujjyata. I know the details of this extra ordinary state and now I shall tell you about it.

    This ecstasy of this state is only known by myself. O Uddhava, I shall tell you!

    Though the bodies of the devotee and the God are identical with each other, there is in the mind of the devotee, a sense of �I am� and �the God is separate from me�. So, wise people do not give much value to Saroopata�.

    My devotees do not touch duality. They become one with me and that is itself the true and
    highest worship of Me.

    The devotees and the God are one and only one, eternally, ever perfectly united, but those
    who create a sense of duality, are really to be considered as without devotion and bound by
    Maya.

    The categories of devotees are only within the field of Maya and only those who worship
    me being united and undivided from me, attain Sayujjyata.

    Sayujjyata is for them who feel same sympathy for the king and beggar

    He who considers his body as false as our own shadow, seemingly attached to the body, and is not attached to it, reaches this state.

    The shadow is born together with us, and is always with us, but generally, nobody feels
    proud and says � �This is my shadow�. Similarly, one who is not disturbed by what happens
    to his physical body reaches this Sayujjyata.

    O Uddhava, please understand that he, faithfully, and devotedly worships me dropping all
    his attachments to objects of senses.

    This state can be reached only by a person, who does not see I-ness in his body, and You-
    ness in any other Being.

    O Uddhava, my consciousness and his consciousness are equally vast, and that is why he is
    having Sayujjyata.

    He has no desire that his body should look like Lord Vishnu. He knows that the body of Lord
    Vishnu and his own body are unreal, and, therefore, he does not desire Saroopata.

    If we ourselves think about this matter, we realize that any physical body as such is
    everywhere unreal. Then where is the scope for similarity of appearance between man and
    God? And how will any wise man pray for it?

    When this state is achieved, the person does not find any place empty, where Brahman is
    not. The definition of Sayujjyata is to see ourselves everywhere in every creature.

    Such a person looks at thousands and thousands of figures and bodies by which the world is filled, but realizes that all this is within him, and he is unbroken, continuous universal
    Atman.

    One who feels that occupying everything in and out is himself, he is the Atman of all the
    living and the non-living in all creatures, finds that this highest state is living with him in his
    house.

    Only the man, who has the concept that he is singly occupying the entire world without division can reach this state.

    In short, I give my devotees everything that my devotees ask or wish for whatever they want
    according to their natural thinking. So, as described, my devotee attains all the four
    liberations.

    There are other devotees also whom I love, whose power of devotional involvement is such
    that they are always indulgent selflessly in my worship.

    These great devotees do not care about the three types of devotion, in which the devotee is
    in difficulty, or the devotee is inquisitive about Me or the devotee wants to achieve the
    human perfections. They simply, without any motive and with great love always worship me.

    They do not desire the stages of liberation known as Salokata, Sameepata, Saroopata and
    even Sayujjyata but only selflessly worship Me and this is the real devotion.

    The effect of worship is very miraculous. By love more love is created towards me and
    every moment the joy of love goes on increasing.

    Such a devotee, in the ecstasy, gives up his whole life but his trust in me is so great that he
    does not care a bit, his mind is never sorry about anything given up in this way.

    His confirmed faith makes him think that he himself and Me, as Atman and as God are permeating in every creature. This faith is never moved, is never spoiled though others may
    make efforts to create doubt distrust and disbelief in him.

    He is so great in his attitude that all men and women are for him, My living images and he has so much respect for Me dwelling in all these creatures that he offers salutations most humbly even to dogs and swine.

    These devotees simply discard liberation, freedom at any level in the extreme force of their
    emotions for me.

    However great the calamity may be, they are not afraid, nor do they request others for any
    help because they believe that all these calamities are nothing, faced with the din of the name
    of Rama.

    Such a devotee calmly continues to recite my name with love even if there is total catastrophe or the Earth may collapse before his eyes.

    When I see such loyal one-pointed love I am won over by him and without considering his
    caste or status I run to his home to meet him.

    Such devotees have not to go to Vaikuntha. I make their home Vaikuntha itself. Then the
    dawn of knowledge arises there and groups of saints begin to gather.

    Upanishads make friends with them and Religion comes to stay happily with them. Further
    such great devotees like Narada, Sanaka etc have great love for their Lord.

    Such devotees loudly proclaim the importance of repeating the name of God, sing about my
    fame with great love and as the name of Rama is ruling in their mind the troubles arising out
    of pain and pleasure do not remain there.

    When there is such devotion, the Atmic bliss runs with love towards them and forgets to
    leave their house.

    Every blemish which comes and tries to spoil their character actually becomes their virtue.
    This is the complete happiness in my devotion.

    All the four liberations come to serve them in their life and whatever objects these devotees
    use or experience become part of the Sayujjyata, which is their servant.

    Though all powers and all pleasures and capacities become their housemaids such devotee
    does not turn their attention to them, their whole faith is in the devotion only.

    I also love these devotees and whenever such devotee looks I myself become the object of
    their sight.

    I become the speech of such devotee. I live in and out of his speech in the form of the content
    and the meaning of their sentences.

    He may play with pebbles. I become the pebbles and I release from bondage of this worldly life of the man towards whom this devotee looks with grace and kindness.

    I shower happiness wherever he glances and I myself uplift and take him to the highest state
    that man about whom he intends to do so.

    Even if such devotee is faced with slight nuisance I jump to remove that trouble. Not only
    this but I release from bondage those people who recite the name of that devotee.

    My care about these devotees is like the love of a mother for her little child. I do not hesitate
    to do any work to serve them.

    As the mother pampers her child I also do so in case of my devotees. I like their love for me
    and various offerings in the performances of worship are not so important to me.

    I am the body and he is my Atman. I like a devotee who loves me and all the greatness of
    devotion reaches its limit in that love.

    I love such devotee that I become a fortress to protect him from death.

    To protect such devotees from Death and destruction, I guide them towards the path of
    realisation of Absolute Brahman and bring them to the state of Unity with me so that they live
    in the bliss of the Atman.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 25 April 2014 at 04:04 AM.

  2. #12
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    Re: Mukthi and self-realiazation

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post

    Interesting, I thought that Ai Shankara never commented on Bhagavata Purana. But I have one question- Why Shankaracharya never mentioned Bhagavata Purana in Upanishada & Gita Bhashya ?
    Namaste HLK,

    prasthAntrayI is vedAnta, which teaches us brahma-vidyA, the highest philosophical truth. Hence, in prasthAntraiyI bhASya, Adi Sankara had to establish Advaita as the supreme goal and ultimate purport of vedAnta. *Hence GYAna is focused. bhakti is for masses, hence it is focused in independent hymns and in prabOdh sudhAkara

    Even in his viShNu sahasranAma bhASya, Adi Sankara does not quote bhAgavat purANa.

    prabOdh sudhAkara is lesser known work and many works attributed to Adi Sankara, if they are not in line with the core philosophy are considered as of dubious authenticity.

    I think bhAgavat purANa is also mentioned in svetaSvatara up. Sankara bhASya, again a case of dubious authenticity.

    bhAgavat was not mentioned by rAmAnuja in his vedAnta samgrah (read somewhere). He only mentioned viShNu purANa.

    I do not pay much attention towards these issues

    Only God knows the truth

    What's Vivarta Vada ? Requesting to explain me.
    vivarta vAda is explained by snake-rope analogy

    In the night if someone sees a snake, but when one throws light on it, one knows that it is a rope.

    Snake was illusion and existed only until rope was not seen (due to darkness).

    When one sees rope, snake vanishes and does not leave any track.

    When one rises beyond mAyA one experiences supreme brahman. One also realizes that there never was this world, jIva bhAva (when one is abiding in this state). There is only one supreme Brahman.

    Since snake appeared, it cannot be asat. Since it vanishes (without leaving any trace like zig-zag movement marks), it cannot be eternal, hence not real.

    So snake is mithyA, that which is neither real nor false. Snake is true only until it is seen and experienced. But in either case, the experiencer never vanishes. Snake is seen due to darkness (ignorance, avidyA), wrong notion and wrong perception. In the same way this world is seen and experienced as different from Brahman.

    When light is thrown on snake, i.e. knowledge dawns, snake vanishes, mAyA runs away. One enters into non-dual bliss.

    So world, mAyA is true only from POV of empirical reality, where there is duality (observer and object of observation). But from absolute reality, this world is not true, as it is negated in nirvikalp samadhi. Also the worlds are destroyed and hence cannot be technically considered as permanent.

    Brahman is changeless, permanent, ever-present, undivided reality. Brahman is the only tatva that qualifies to be called as real, as per BG 2.16 (advaita interpretation)

    So the lower reality is that is experienced under the influence of avidyA mAyA and absolute supreme reality is Brahman only.

    In pariNAm vAda, there is irreversible reaction, which is permanent, like milk changing to curd.

    OM

    *added later
    Last edited by Amrut; 25 April 2014 at 09:38 AM. Reason: added a line after *
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  3. #13

    Re: Mukthi and self-realiazation

    namaste to all members

    @hinduism♥krishna:

    on views about creation there are asat karya vada and sat karya vada.

    asat karya vada: the effect is utterly non existent in the cause, it is creation from nothingness. (advaita vedanta doesn't support this)

    sat karya vada: the effect is exist in potential form in the cause

    there are parinama vada and vivarta vada in sat karya vada.

    parinama vada: there is real transformation of cause becoming effect.
    (ex: milk transforms to curd), advaitin doesn't support this

    vivarta vada: it is a transformationless transformation.
    ex: gold becomes ornaments like ring, bangle,etc
    gold never becomes ring, in fact, ring is gold in the beginning, ring is only a name for a form...advaitin support this.

    all thing is only existence. existence never becomes existence. it is only existence.. existence in the form of milk now as though becomes existence in the form of curd..

    from existence stand point, there is never a creation, never a destruction.
    so even vaikuntha is never created, never destroyed. it is like in front of gold, there is no ring and bangle...ring is gold only. when the ring is melted or destroyed, it is still gold only in different name and form, name and form is mithya only.

    there is never a separation from brahman in the beginning, and there is never a dissolution or merge to brahman in the end.

  4. #14
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    Re: Mukthi and self-realiazation

    Dhanyavad Dhanyavad... Amrut & Lokavidu (btw what do you mean by Lokavidu)

    So the lower reality is that is experienced under the influence of avidyA mAyA and absolute supreme reality is Brahman only.
    Once you said that Maya is not Brahman, with which I'm not agreed. As per my view, Maya is not Brahman, isn't a part of Brahmavidya.

    I would like to know, did Adi Shankara teach Maya is ultimately Brahman or not ? Sant Eknath proposes that Maya is none other than brahman itself and which has not any existence and after realisation Maya along with ignorance & knowledge merges in Brahman.

    We face many problems when Maya is considered different from Brahman. If we consider it different from Brahman, then it implies that Maya is something other thing and has a separate existence. The definition all is Brahman is failed here. As per my view, Considering maya different from Brahman, one can not deny existence of Maya or call it mithya. When we say Maya is Bramhan, then only its existence can be denied. It is said that when one realises brahman, maya gets merged in Brahman. It is like Maya has now become Brahman.

    All is bramhan at all times. Jiva is Bramhan even though he appears in Maya. When Brahman divides himself, he himself becomes world or Maya and Jiva. This is one of the principles of Brahman vidya. So I think in any case, Maya is Bramhan.

    So my view, Maya is Brahman but Brahman is not Maya. This is the same thing like Shri Krishna's words of gita " I'm the world but I'm not in the word" It means though Maya is Bramhan I'm beyond Maya...

    I belive that cause & effect & origin of these cause and effect (Brahman) , all these are one.

    Shri Krishna is teaching brahmavidya to Uddhava :

    “ahametatprasankhyanam….. bhavo vidyate kwachit “ (BP 11.16.38)

    Meaning:
    The Krishna said - I am the knowledge of these principles and the counting of them. I am the Jeeva, I am the God, I am the wielder of Gunas and I am the Gunas themselves; and without me, who am the Atman of all, there is nothing separate existing.


    Jai Krishna....

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    Re: Mukthi and self-realiazation

    Namaste

    Sarupya - Same form (Siddhi), Salokya - Residence in the same abode of (Vaidik), Sarshti - Same opulence as (Ganapatya and Shakta)), Samipya - Intimacy with (Vaisnav), Sayujya - merging with (Saiva).

    In my "opinion", only the last and Sarshti are compatible with Advaita conclusions. Those who attain Samipya will be Dvaita and in order to serve will abhor the idea of Sayuja.

    All are legit forms of Mukti, but not all are compatible with Advaita. Any of these can be realized in Kashi. However, in Kashi Lord Yamaraj is not allowed to enter for the purpose of dragging away souls. He can only come to give worship, but is the only Devata blocked from entrance by Bhairava if otherwise. Yamaraj established the Lingam called Dharmeshwara in Kashi.

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Mukthi and self-realiazation

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Namaste

    Sarupya - Same form (Siddhi), Salokya - Residence in the same abode of (Vaidik), Sarshti - Same opulence as (Ganapatya and Shakta)), Samipya - Intimacy with (Vaisnav), Sayujya - merging with (Saiva).

    In my "opinion", only the last and Sarshti are compatible with Advaita conclusions. Those who attain Samipya will be Dvaita and in order to serve will abhor the idea of Sayuja.

    All are legit forms of Mukti, but not all are compatible with Advaita. Any of these can be realized in Kashi. However, in Kashi Lord Yamaraj is not allowed to enter for the purpose of dragging away souls. He can only come to give worship, but is the only Devata blocked from entrance by Bhairava if otherwise. Yamaraj established the Lingam called Dharmeshwara in Kashi.

    Om Namah Sivaya
    Namaste

    However, in my observations, any of these Muktis are for any Sampradaya if they want or so teach. These are only "favoritisms". For example, I have discovered Vaishnavs who are not taking intimacy mukti but some other, and yes including Advaita.

    My school teaches the last, merging, and is very Advaitic but I don't think it would be correct to associate that school with what is Advaita today by some modern schools.

    Currently, I am not interested in merging, but without qualification mukti in any of these is easy in Kashi. Ganga embraces all. Also some consider mukti as always serving the Divine or the servants of the Lord as well.

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Mukthi and self-realiazation

    Namste HLK,

    mAya is split into two

    Brahman + avidyA mAyA = jIva
    Brahman + (vidyA) mAyA = ISvara (vidyA mAyA is simply called as mAyA)

    This is the basics of advaita.

    Your doubt can be easily answered by snake-rope analogy.

    Snake does not have independent existence.

    Rope has independent existence

    What we see as snake is nothing but rope only

    But rope was not snake at any time

    Hope you get the answer

    ---

    Namaste SF ji

    It is not propitiatory to say that vaiSNava do not like sayujya mukti. It might be a general observation. It take your word in right spirit.

    There was Meerabai who merged into bhagavAn.

    There are many vaiSNava saints and Saiva saints who are of liberal mindset. Their ISTa devatA will always be their chosen deity and they do have un- shaking faith in their chosen deity. They do not come into limelight.

    For advaita, explanation related to Brahman and mukti is difficult because words can be intepreted in different ways.

    The word 'merging' would mean an act of dissolving, which technically does not happen. It's difficult to explain. Taking in right spirit, we can understand what does it mean from advaita POV. But if we think that a soul, individual identity), actually merges in the body of a personal deity like caturbhUja viShNu then thing is different.

    In advaita at any point of time,

    You CANNOT negate your own self.
    You CANNOT become non-existent.
    There is no death of individual soul. Hence we speak of jIva being 'wrong notion'.

    So advaita begins with the search of Self. It is an inner journey. Until the true nature is realized, we are still in duality and in vyavahArika plane. So tiny jIva with limited adjuncts and the dual world is existent for us. But, there is a conscious effort to know the true nature.

    Something merges, something is destroyed, shows an act, a transformation, which advaita does not accept. But under ignorance, advaita does accept mAyA and this world as relative reality.

    Since GYAna is not opposite to relative reality, relative reality is not negated after Self Realization. World appears as Brahman In simple words, world appears, but GYAnI knows that duality is illusion and in reality only Brahman only exist.

    e.g. we experience sun veiled (covered) by clouds, but we know that sun is never veiled by clouds

    e.g. we see horizon, meeting of earth and sky, but still we know the reality

    Only avidyA is negated by GYAna, as they are opposite to each other. Knowledge and ignorance are of opposite nature.

    avidyA mAyA is gone, but vidyA mAyA remains. If we do not consider this, then jIvanmukti cannot be explained. After prArabhdha is finished, body drops, one attains videh mukti, now there is no experience other than the Self / Brahman.

    In simple words, jIva shruShTi is destroyed (within mind). ISvara shruShTi remains after GYAna.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Mukthi and self-realiazation

    Namaste HLK,

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    [FONT="Georgia"]As per my view, Maya is not Brahman, isn't a part of Brahmavidya.
    MAyA is the most difficult thing to understand and in my opinion, this is why we have six different schools arising from VedAnta. Therefore, such questions are quite valuable. In my understanding :

    MAyA is power of Brahman which may be manifest or unmanifest. MAyA consists of two powers : a) Power of veiling the Reality i.e. Brahman b) Power of projection (creation) of this entire universe. MAyA is neither real nor unreal. It is not Real because Brahman never changes, it remains as it is in all times ... that is why though MAndukya Upanishad describes four parts of Brahman/Self but also says that Turiya i.e. the fourth is the Self which means that all the other three parts are actually unreal and imposed on the fourth. However, MAYA is real otherwise from where this creation would take place ?

    This is very disturbing ! How can anything be real and also unreal at the same time ? If it is real then it is Brahman and if it is unreal then it doesn't actually exist. Now, that is the excellent power of Brahman which is not comparable with any example that this mind can understand. It is beyond logic and beyond all mental concepts. Why ? Brahman is what It is ... always peaceful, without any prapancham (disturbances) but still for Jeeva, there is universe, the Ishvara and everything associated with it. Let's understand that it is not that MAyA merges in Brahman on realisation. It is like dreaming ends for the dreamer. MAyA is beginingless ... it is not that it was born at a specific time. It ends ... but ends for the realised Jeeva and for "all others" it continues as ever.

    MAyA is mithya. It is neither real nor unreal. It is a power which apparently acts and creates this universe and veils Brahman. MAyA has no existence apart from Brahman ... it is part and parcel of Brahman. Remember what Abhinava Gupta says, "Shiva and Shakti are not aware that they are separate. They are interconnected with each other as fire and warmth are interconnected." However, on Self-realisation, MAyA is not seen any where. It is Brahman alone ... utterly peaceful and blissful without any disturbances whatsoever. It is like power of mind to create dream-like situation and power is not seen when awake.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #19
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    Re: Mukthi and self-realiazation

    Om

    My understanding

    I feel the Maya is born with the subtle world and is out of the subtle world where the mind belongs. That is it belongs to mind.

    Maya is the shape, form and other parameters which the subtle world / gross world senses can sense, identify or percieve. It is closely related to the senses. It is the one through we transact or identify ourselves

    The manifestation of the Maya is different in the subtle and gross world. One looks like virtual and other provable in labs

    As the unmanifestation happens from gross world to subtle world to pure Consciousness, the Maya also moves from gross senses to mind senses.

    As in unmanifestation subtle world ceases to exist so with it the Maya also cease to exist. As it is born with / out of subtle wold, it does not exist in pure consciousness state.

    So a Turiya state or pure consciousness there is nothing but pure consciousness.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  10. #20

    Re: Mukthi and self-realiazation

    Respected All

    Thanks for all of your responses.It is really useful for spiritual newbies like me.Couple of questions based on responses on this thread.

    1.In Kaivalya stage,will there be no trace of individuality (even 0.000001 ?)

    2.While Bhagvat Gita is best non-duality scripture, why does 90% of Lord Krishna devotees follow duality based worship?( posting this as i want to know general opinion of members.My intention is not to compare both of them)

    Thanks
    Last edited by Who am i; 28 April 2014 at 05:53 AM. Reason: edit

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