Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 54

Thread: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

  1. #11

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    Nevertheless, it is the integration of Sanatana Dharma and Islam.
    Not really. All the "Sikh" Gurus were descended from Hindu families. Even the term "Sikh" Gurus is a misnomer because the word "Sikh" comes from Sanskrit "shisya" which means disciple. So it is like calling the Guru's as disciples which makes no sense. There can't possibly be a "Sikh" Guru although to differentiate the Sikh sampradaya that is what occurs. What is misunderstood is that Sikhism developed during the Mughal oppression, during a time of forced conversions of Hindus.


    Guru Arjan Dev Ji's martyrdom

    Saikh Ahmad, the head of the Naqashbandt order (Sufi) at Sirhind and a leader of the revivalist movement of Islam in India, got upset at the influence of the Guru among men of both the communities. He had access to the court of Jahangir. But, probably the chief reason that upset the Emperor was that the Guru had blessed Khusro and helped him monetarily while the latter had rebelled against Jahangir. The local administration was naturally aware of the growing Sociopolitical strength and influence of the Guru. Chat this incident rankled in the mind of emperor Jahangir, is evident from his own statement recorded in his autobiography. He wrote that he had ordered the execution by torture of Guru Arjun unless he embraced Islam, because the Guru had raised aloft the standard of holiness and many Hindus and Muslims had foolishly become his followers.http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/gurus/nanak5.html
    Guru Ji was brought to Chandu's house where he was given no food or water all night. In the morning, Chandu told Guru Arjun Saheb Ji that if he would accept his marriage proposal he would convince Jahangir to let him live. The Guru refused the offer. Guru Arjun Saheb Ji was brought to the court where he was given three choices:
    1) Accept Islam (Convert to Islam)
    2) Add some of Muhammed's hymns to the Aad Granth Saheb Ji
    3) Be killed
    The Guru refused the first two options and chose to die. Guru Arjun Saheb Ji was then tortured. http://www.gurmatstudies.com/articles/5guru1.htm
    So we see from the history the "TRUE" relationship between Sikhs and Islam. Sikhism represents a form of militant Hinduism that survived by waging war on the Mughals/Muslims to stop the oppression of the Hindu population.

    What happened was the Guru's saw the true spirituality in the Bhagats primarily Vaishnav and some Sufi. Bhagat bani is included in Shri Guru Granth Sahib. People don't understand that those Sufi bhagats whose bani appears in Guru Granth Sahib were themselves chela of Vaishnav bhaktis whose ideal of attaining liberation was to jap the Name of Lord Ram. There is literally no teaching of Islam or even mention of their Prophet Mohamed anywhere in the Sikh scripture. It teaches that a Muslim should be a good Muslim and a Hindu should be a good Hindu because the Gurus were TOTALLY AGAINST the need for conversion. The Sikh Gurmantr Naam of God is Waheguru/Vahiguru. Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas tells us the V = Vishnu/Vasudeyv, the H = Har Krishna, the G = Gobinda, the R = Ram. So the Sikh Naam of God as Waheguru is purely Vaishnav in origin although as true Hindus Gurbani says the name of Allah is also another Naam of God as is Shiva.

    Because of the time period, many Arabic and Farsi words became part of the Punjabi language and hence are part of the Guru Granth Sahib which was literally an explanation of the Vedas, Shastras and Puranas from the Sanskrit and Bhagat bani from Braj Bhasha to common dialect of Punjabi which the common and even illiterate people could understand. The Gurus are credited with development of Gurmukhi script to print Punjabi language and for teaching literacy to the Sikhs. That degree of education was clear attempt to keep Sikhs distinct from Islamic conversion.

    When the British Raj came to power in India, the last kingdom they defeated was the Sikhs. They managed to enlist the Sikh Army into British Sepoys and began by dividing the community. First began mischief to divide the communities along religious lines. The British influenced Singh Sabha movement was behind mass conversions of Dalits and Muslims into Sikh religion during late 1800's to early 1900's. This coincided with rejection of Hinduism, beginning of purge of Hindu concepts out of Sikh "religion," banning historical documents which expressed obvious Hindu teachings such as Janam Sakhis, Sau Sakhis, Gur Bilas, Prem Sumarag, and Panthic contentions over Shri Dasm Granth; questionable alterations such as mention of head shaving ceremony for Guru mentioned in Guru Arjun's Ramkali hymn in debate between authenticity between Banno bir or Kartarpur bir; removal of Murthis of Krishna, Vishnu and Durga from Golden Temple in 1906, etc.

    So for these reasons Sikhism is modernly equated as a synthesis of Hinduism and Islam. It is not. Sikhism is a sect of Hindu religion by it's very origin and teachings and has some superficial resemblance with Islam only due to cultural and linguistic context of the time co-existing as oppressed religion under Mughal Raj. Even alleged strict "Abrahamic" monotheism of Sikhs can be proved as false from Gurmat itself, the teachings of the Gurus. I would like to know what sect of Islam, including Sufis would agree to the ideology below.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
    guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
    The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
    gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
    The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

    ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
    jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
    Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 2

  2. #12

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    I have recently read that the Mujuaddidi (sp) Naqshbandi has been influenced a lot by Hinduism. I'd love to know more about that.
    Yes, this is true, however not just the Naqshbandi sect but all of Sufism, and even perhaps to some smaller degree Islam itself. Does this seem amazing? Allow me to prove such a radical interpretation.


    Muslim Mughals are descendents of the Mongols who were originally Buddhist and hence sanatan.


    Ancient Buddha images are all over Afghanistan although they are being destroyed in a deliberate suppression by Taliban.

    In 630, Muhammad and his followers returned to Mecca as conquerors, and he destroyed the 360 idols in and around the Kaaba. While destroying each idol, Muhammad recited [Qur'an 17:81] which says "Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba
    All Muslims face towards Mecca to say their obligatory prayers. And the focal point they face to in Mecca is the Kaaba. Inside the Kaaba are broken fragments of the black stone called Al-hajar Al-aswad. Anyone can clearly see the fragments are housed in a yoni.


    Muslims adoring Al-hajar Al-aswad fragments in the Kaaba.


    Mohammed with the Black Stone, clearly a linga.


    Shiva Linga and yoni.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    October 2009
    Location
    Funkytown
    Age
    37
    Posts
    60
    Rep Power
    34

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    I wouldn't link the ka'aba to the yoni simply because they share a similar shade of stone. During the 'jahiliyyah' it did house "Pagan," statues and so on but past that everything was smashed and discarded once Islam was embraced by the people of Arabia. Also, those pictures are not very revealing, it's like saying people who live in Britain are influenced by Paganism because the stone and woodhenge still stand there. Also, you can't say that Islam generally has been influenced by the dharma, it's only within Shi'a Islam and Ismaili Islam specifically do you find influences of the dharma within their teachings. Aside from this there is essentially no influence from my understanding.
    Don't look for meaning there is none.

    ॐ नमः शिवाय.

  4. #14

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?


    During Hajj pilgrimage to the Kaaba, Muslims purify and wear seamless white cloth. This is a clear Vedic remnant


    Brahmin priests wearing White cloth for Vedic worship.

    As a form of worship, Muslims circumambulate/tawaf the Kaaba seven times in counterclockwise direction. This kind of circumambulation is also ancient Vedic practice. Taking seven steps around a fire is marriage practice.

    Saptapadi (Sanskrit: सप्तपदी, saptapadī, pronounced /ˌsəptəˈpəðiː/Hindi: सात फेरे, sāt phéré, lit. seven circumambulations) is an important rite (Sanskrit, Hindi: rītī) of a Hindu marriage ceremony. In the seven steps, the bride and groom circumambulate a consecrated fire seven times, reciting specific vows with each circuit (Sanskrit: parikrama). Vows made in the presence of the sacred fire (Sanskrit: agni) are considered unbreakable, with Agnideva (lit. God/Lord of Fire; c.f. Latin cognates: ignis+deus) held as both witnessing and blessing the couple's union. lit. seven steps; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saptapadi
    So the question has long arisen, is the Kaaba a Hindu temple? There is an inscription said to be found which lists Hindu King Vikramaditya as founder of religion which was found in vicinity of the Kaaba in Mecca.
    Was the Kabah thus the “house of the Moon-god”? Yes.
    Did the name “Allah” eventually replace that of Hubul as the name of the Moon god?
    Yes.
    Did they call the Kabah the “house of Allah”? Yes.
    Were al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat called “the daughters of Allah”? Yes.
    Yusuf Ali explains in fn. 5096, pg. 1445, that Lat, Uzza and Manat were known as “the daughters of God [Allah]”
    Did the Qur’an at one point tell Muslims to worship al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat? Yes. In Surah 53:19-20.
    Have those verses been “abrogated” out of the present Qur’an? Yes.
    What were they called? “The Satanic Verses.”
    http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-24443.0.html
    We give below translations of some of the āpri mantrās.
    May Iļā, Sarasvatī, Mahī, the three Goddesses of delight come to the seat, unharmed (1.13.9). May Sarasvatī affecting our thought dhiyam and Goddesses Iļā and Bhāratīsvadhaya. (2.3.8) who carry all to their goal sit on our altar seat and guard our house of refuge by the self-law of things
    In unison may Bhāratī with her muses of invocation bhāratibhih, Iļā with gods, men and Agni, Sarasvatī with her powers of inspiration sārasvatebhirvāk, come down to us; may the three goddesses be seated, (7.2.8) and (3.4.8). http://www.vedah.com/org2/literature..._mahi_ila.html
    Three goddesses of delight, one named Ila. Ila, Ala, Amba Bhavani. Three goddesses Allah commanded men to worship, Bis millah. Ila. Allah. Ancient female gods who are represented by moon whose symbol is crescent and who is goddess of war.


    Basmala (or Bismillah,[1] Arabic بسملة) is an Arabic language noun which is used as the collective name of the whole of the recurring Islamic bismi-llāhi ar-raḥmāni ar-raḥīmi. This phrase constitutes the first verse of every "sura" (or chapter) of the Qur'an (except for the ninth sura), and is used in a number of contexts by Muslims. It is recited several times as part of Muslim daily prayers, and it is usually the first phrase in the preamble of the constitutions of Islamic countries. phrase بسم الله الرحمن الرحيمbismi-llāhi ar-raḥmāni ar-raḥīmi"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmala
    The crescent and disk were used frequently for Allat and Allah. The disk represented the sun, and the crescent was the moon, so Allat was the moon goddess, which was the pagan theology all over the Middle East. This is why it is impossible to claim that Allah was the moon god. He represents the sun, or the central phallic "point of light," to compliment the receiving moon. The crescent moon is vaginal in context...

    In one inscription, Allat is associated with "rhm," which is Rahman, after vowels are supplied. This shows that Allat was at times the consort of Rahman, who migrated to India as Brahman, and to Mecca, to end up in Muhammed's Koran as an alternate name for Allah. Allat is called "lover of Baal," and in a Ras Shamrs inscription Allat is identified as the goddess of war.
    http://www.balaams-ass.com/ALHAJ/page15.htm
    The pre-Islamic religion of Arabia had 360 gods, the central of which were the Sun and the Moon. The goddess of the moon was a war god, ie, Durga. Her consort therefore must be Lord Shiva. If this is the ancient religion of Arabia, then yes, Kaaba is an ancient Hindu temple.

  5. #15

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    I wouldn't link the ka'aba to the yoni simply because they share a similar shade of stone.
    You are entitled to your opinion. Kaaba means "square."

    This is the Kaaba.


    Inside the Kaaba is the Al-hajar Al-aswad, fragments of the black stone kept in a vaginal shaped structure resembling a yoni.The black stone would represent a linga, not a yoni. And yes, Shiv Ji's linga is traditionally depicted as black. It is not by color alone but by the clear linga shape of the Al-hajar Al-aswad in conjunction with it's representation in a yoni shaped container, the question of historical and pre-Islamic religious traditions which are behind it as the black stone of Mohamed was ancient in Mohamed's time. The Kaaba was already a "pagan" temple in Mohamed's time. The only question is whether a case can be made through sufficient linkages that the pre-Islamic religion of Arabia was influenced by Hindu religion.
    It is the eastern cornerstone of the Kaaba, the ancient sacred stone building towards which Muslims pray, in the center of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.[2] The Stone is roughly 30 cm (12 in.) in diameter, and 1.5 meters (5 ft.) above the ground.[3] When pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the Tawaf ritual of the Hajj, many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that it, according to Islamic lore, received from the Islamic prophet.[4] If they cannot reach it, they point to it on each of their seven circuits around the Kaaba. The Stone was broken into a number of pieces from damage inflicted during the Middle Ages. The pieces are held together by a silver frame, which is fastened by silver nails to the Stone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone
    Without doubt the pre-Islamic religion of Arabia was considered "pagan" and Hindu's are not the only people pointing to remnants of those non-Abrahamic traditions and linkages still existing in Islam such as literal worship of the black stone in the Kaaba, something that doesn't fit in with Muslims breaking other religions murthis and forbidding images of any kind.

    It's hard to know much about pre-Islamic Arabia because the feature of Islam has been to destroy and suppress what it disbelieves. But elements of Hinduism and Buddhism are all over the middle east. So the influence is undeniable.
    Also, you can't say that Islam generally has been influenced by the dharma, it's only within Shi'a Islam and Ismaili Islam specifically do you find influences of the dharma within their teachings. Aside from this there is essentially no influence from my understanding.
    I am making clear references to pre-Islamic religion of the Arabian peninsula having influence on the cultural beliefs and remnants of that still somewhat existing in modified and muted form in Islam. I never said Islam was a Dharmic religion. It clearly has suppressed and intolerantly destroyed what it disagrees with. Influences in Shia Islam and Sufism in particular have a lot to do with forced conversions and overlapping of Kashimiri Shaivism as well as bhakti influences of Vaishnava Ram-Naamis, particularly in Sufi Dhikr, pranayama repetition of Naam of Allah.


    Ancient pre-Buddhist Vedic temples of Angkor Wat, Cambodia shows just how widespread was Hindu influence in the ancient world.
    Digging up the Saudi past: some would rather not
    That's because it's in Saudi Arabia, where conservatives are deeply hostile to pagan, Jewish and Christian sites that predate the founding of Islam in the 7th century. But now, in a quiet but notable change of course, the kingdom has opened up an archaeology boom by allowing Saudi and foreign archaeologists to explore cities and trade routes long lost in the desert.

    The sensitivities run deep. Archaeologists are cautioned not to talk about pre-Islamic finds outside scholarly literature. Few ancient treasures are on display, and no Christian or Jewish relics. A 4th or 5th century church in eastern Saudi Arabia has been fenced off ever since its accidental discovery 20 years ago and its exact whereabouts kept secret... The Arabian Peninsula is rich, nearly untouched territory for archaeologists. In pre-Islamic times it was dotted with small kingdoms and crisscrossed by caravan routes to the Mediterranean. Ancient Arab peoples — Nabateans, Lihyans, Thamud — interacted with Assyrians and Babylonians, Romans and Greeks. Much about them is unknown...


    At nearby Jurash, a previously untouched site in the mountains overlooking the Red Sea, a team led by David Graf of the University of Miami is uncovering a city that dates at least to 500 B.C. The dig could fill out knowledge of the incense routes running through the area and the interactions of the region's kingdoms over a 1,000-year span...

    But the call to keep the land purged of other religions runs deep among many Saudis. Even though Madain Saleh site is open for tourism, many Saudis refuse to visit on religious grounds because the Quran says God destroyed it for its sins.


    Excavations sometimes meet opposition from local residents who fear their region will become known as "Christian" or "Jewish." And Islam being an iconoclastic religion, hard-liners have been known to raze even ancient Islamic sites to ensure that they do not become objects of veneration. Saudi museums display few non-Islamic artifacts. Riyadh's National Museum shows small pre-Islamic statues, a golden mask and a large model of a pagan temple. In some display cases, female figurines are listed, but not present — likely a nod to the kingdom's ban on depictions of the female form. http://www.newsday.com/digging-up-th...-not-1.1396398

  6. #16
    Join Date
    October 2009
    Location
    Funkytown
    Age
    37
    Posts
    60
    Rep Power
    34

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    This response will be brief and I respond more later but for now I will say that cleansing rituals and the color white to symbolize purity is quite common both within the East and the world over. Jews also wear white and have a ritual which is performed each morning which involves washing and bathing to purify the body and soul, is this a remanent of Vedic culture?
    Don't look for meaning there is none.

    ॐ नमः शिवाय.

  7. #17

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    Jews also wear white and have a ritual which is performed each morning which involves washing and bathing to purify the body and soul, is this a remanent of Vedic culture?
    Who knows? If Sruti was revealed to the Rishi's in ancient times and comes from Primordial Truth, then the basis of all world religions would have to be related in some way.

    In this context we're looking at the pre-Islamic religious traditions which may have survived in Islam. Would Jews be considered in this context of ritual worship associated with an ancient pagan temple involving kissing of a black stone? And if not, then by analogy the similarity to Vedic religion as per the King Vikramaditya inscription in the vicinity of the Kaaba itself being refers to a Hindu King and thus a Hindu temple. So I'm not analyzing every religion's purification rituals and white robes, but those specifically related to rituals conducted in the Kaaba which is acknowledged as an ancient "pagan" temple. I'm surprised you said you practiced Hinduism for ten years but don't know the difference between a linga and a yoni. "I wouldn't link the ka'aba to the yoni simply because they share a similar shade of stone."

    According to the hadith, the Ka'aba in Mecca was a center of idol-worship, with the Ka'aba housing 360 idols: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Masud: The Prophet entered Mecca and (at that time) there were three hundred-and-sixty idols around the Ka’aba. He started stabbing the idols with a stick he had in his hand and reciting: "Truth (Islam) has come and Falsehood (disbelief) has vanished." Sahih Bukhari 3:43:658 http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Pa...igins_of_Islam
    So if there was an inscription of a ancient Hindu king near that ancient pagan temple, you think the analysis would be better served to compare with Jewish rituals?

    Don't look for meaning there is none.
    Okay. Conversely don't ignore meaning where there may be meaning.

  8. #18

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post
    There is literally no teaching of Islam or even mention of their Prophet Mohamed anywhere in the Sikh scripture.
    Perhaps I was being too simplistic, but I suspect you are too, though your post was informative.

    'Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.'--SGGS p141

    Quote Originally Posted by Abominable Snowman
    it's like saying people who live in Britain are influenced by Paganism because the stone and woodhenge still stand there.
    That is not all, and since it is true, what is your point?

  9. #19

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    'Ihram' is a state a Muslim enters into for his pilgrimage to Mecca. 'Ihram' involves a series of procedures like ritual washing, wearing 'Ihram garments', etc. 'Ihram' was originally a pagan requirement for worshipping idols during pre-Islamic times. Muhammad retained this practice for Islam. Muslims assume Ihram to perform the Hajj or Umrah. Here is proof from the Hadith regarding its pagan heritage:
    Narrated 'Urwa: I asked 'Aisha : ...But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume “Ihram” for worshipping an idol called “Manat” which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf (circumambulation) between Safa and Marwa. Sahih Bukhari 2:26:706 http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/The_Pa...igins_of_Islam
    The question isn't whether this was retained from "pagan" religion in Islam, clearly it was. The question and analysis is whether that "paganism" was influenced by Hindu/Vedic religion. Since the Muslim countries, especially Arabia are under strict suppression as to antiquity of pre-Islamic religious artifacts, it can only be conjecture. We are prevented to having direct proof. But that should not be misconstrued to believe all the religious denials of the Muslims.
    is this a remanent of Vedic culture?
    It is entirely possible.


    Goddess Al-iLat of the moon symbol - Arabia
    Before Muhammad was born, when Arabia was pagan, the chief idol, who some sources claim was the moon god, named Hubal, had three daughters named al-Lat (simply "the goddess"), al-Uzza and Manat, who carried the shears of fate, and thus was a counterpart in Arabia of Atropos. Each daughter had a separate shrine near Mecca (Makkah), where the chief god Hubal (for the pagan Meccans al-ilah or "the God") had his shrine, the Kaaba. The most prominent shrine of al-'Uzza was at a place called Nakhlah near Qudayd, east of Mecca towards Taif. http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Uzza.html

    Rudra/Shiva of the Sun with bull horns representing moon, from Harappan seals - ancient India
    The Pleiades hold a prominent place as the mothers or wet nurses of the newborn infant in one of the most ancient and central Hindu myths, that of the birth of the war-god Rudra/Skanda, who evidently represents, among other things, the victorious rising sun (and as vernal sun the new year). http://www.harappa.com/script/parpola12.html
    Today in India the God Shiva, of whom Pashupati is considered to be the prototype , is offered worship through the linga (the phallus). In Shiavite temples what is more common than a statue of Shiva is a stone linga, usually with a yoni (the vulva)... Pashupati's horns also share moon symbolism and in the later form of Shiva, Goddess symbolism can still be found on the head. However in Shiva it is not horns to be found but a crescent moon. http://www.realmagick.com/articles/93/1493.html

  10. #20

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur
    There is literally no teaching of Islam or even mention of their Prophet Mohamed anywhere in the Sikh scripture.

    Perhaps I was being too simplistic, but I suspect you are too, though your post was informative.

    'Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.'--SGGS p141
    My original quote, if you read it said there is no Islamic teaching found in Shri Guru Granth Sahib. And I also added that it teaches a Muslim should be a good Muslim. Why is that simplistic?
    There is literally no teaching of Islam or even mention of their Prophet Mohamed anywhere in the Sikh scripture. It teaches that a Muslim should be a good Muslim and a Hindu should be a good Hindu because the Gurus were TOTALLY AGAINST the need for conversion. The Sikh Gurmantr Naam of God is Waheguru/Vahiguru. Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas tells us the V = Vishnu/Vasudeyv, the H = Har Krishna, the G = Gobinda, the R = Ram. So the Sikh Naam of God as Waheguru is purely Vaishnav in origin although as true Hindus Gurbani says the name of Allah is also another Naam of God as is Shiva.
    ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵਣੁ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਜਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
    musalamaan kehaavan musakal jaa hoe thaa musalamaan kehaavai ||
    It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.

    ਅਵਲਿ ਅਉਲਿ ਦੀਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਮਸਕਲ ਮਾਨਾ ਮਾਲੁ ਮੁਸਾਵੈ ॥
    aval aoul dheen kar mithaa masakal maanaa maal musaavai ||
    First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away.

    ਹੋਇ ਮੁਸਲਿਮੁ ਦੀਨ ਮੁਹਾਣੈ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥
    hoe musalim dheen muhaanai maran jeevan kaa bharam chukaavai ||
    Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.
    The name Mohammed does not appear in Guru Granth Sahib. The English translation has put that there for clarification. It is not what the Gurbani says. Below is a better English translation. (You must understand that Sikhism has been tampered with over the last 100 years literally trying to place a wedge between Hindus and unite with Muslims.)

    hoe musalim dheen muhaanai maran jeevan kaa bharam chukaavai
    "Become a true Muslim by following the truth path only. Only then one can be free from the cycle of death and birth."

    ਰਬ ਕੀ ਰਜਾਇ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥
    rab kee rajaae mannae sir oupar karathaa mannae aap gavaavai ||
    As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit.

    ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਮਿਹਰੰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
    tho naanak sarab jeeaa miharanmath hoe th musalamaan kehaavai ||1||
    And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. ||1||
    ~SGGS Ji ang 141
    The pauri is in context of Mughal oppression. It is discussing that a Muslim should be a good Muslim, that he shouldn't harm people. It is not saying Guru's Sikhs should become Muslims or that Muslims are equal to the Guru's Sikhs. What it is saying is that Muslims don't have to convert, they can find God in their own religion.

    More on context:

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਆਵੈ ॥
    hindhoo kai ghar hindhoo aavai ||
    The Hindu comes to the house of a Hindu.

    ਸੂਤੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਪੜਿ ਗਲਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
    sooth janaeoo parr gal paavai ||
    He puts the sacred thread around his neck and reads the scriptures.

    ਸੂਤੁ ਪਾਇ ਕਰੇ ਬੁਰਿਆਈ ॥
    sooth paae karae buriaaee ||
    He puts on the thread, but does evil deeds.

    ਨਾਤਾ ਧੋਤਾ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
    naathaa dhhothaa thhaae n paaee ||
    His cleansings and washings will not be approved.

    ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
    musalamaan karae vaddiaaee ||
    The Muslim glorifies his own faith.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 951

    ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰੈ ਕੋ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
    vin gur peerai ko thhaae n paaee ||
    Without the Guru or a spiritual teacher, no one is accepted.

    ਰਾਹੁ ਦਸਾਇ ਓਥੈ ਕੋ ਜਾਇ ॥
    raahu dhasaae outhhai ko jaae ||
    They may be shown the way, but only a few go there.

    ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥
    karanee baajhahu bhisath n paae ||
    Without the karma of good actions, heaven is not attained.

    ਜੋਗੀ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਦਸਾਈ ॥
    jogee kai ghar jugath dhasaaee ||
    The Way of Yoga is demonstrated in the Yogi's monastery.

    ਤਿਤੁ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਕਨਿ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਪਾਈ ॥
    thith kaaran kan mundhraa paaee ||
    They wear ear-rings to show the way.

    ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਪਾਇ ਫਿਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥
    mundhraa paae firai sansaar ||
    Wearing ear-rings, they wander around the world.

    ਜਿਥੈ ਕਿਥੈ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
    jithhai kithhai sirajanehaar ||
    The Creator Lord is everywhere.

    ਜੇਤੇ ਜੀਅ ਤੇਤੇ ਵਾਟਾਊ ॥
    jaethae jeea thaethae vaattaaoo ||
    There are as many travellers as there are beings.

    ਚੀਰੀ ਆਈ ਢਿਲ ਨ ਕਾਊ ॥
    cheeree aaee dtil n kaaoo ||
    When one's death warrant is issued, there is no delay.

    ਏਥੈ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਸਿਞਾਣੈ ॥
    eaethhai jaanai s jaae sinjaanai ||
    One who knows the Lord here, realizes Him there as well.

    ਹੋਰੁ ਫਕੜੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੈ ॥
    hor fakarr hindhoo musalamaanai ||
    Others, whether Hindu or Muslim, are just babbling.

    ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਦਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
    sabhanaa kaa dhar laekhaa hoe ||
    Everyone's account is read in the Court of the Lord;

    ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਤਰੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
    karanee baajhahu tharai n koe ||
    without the karma of good actions, no one crosses over.

    ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
    sacho sach vakhaanai koe ||
    One who speaks the True Name of the True Lord,

    ਨਾਨਕ ਅਗੈ ਪੁਛ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥
    naanak agai pushh n hoe ||2||
    O Nanak, is not called to account hereafter. ||2||

    ਪਉੜੀ ॥
    pourree ||
    Pauree:
    5
    ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਕਾਇਆ ਕੋਟੁ ਗੜੁ ॥
    har kaa mandhar aakheeai kaaeiaa kott garr ||
    The fortress of the body is called the Mansion of the Lord.

    ਅੰਦਰਿ ਲਾਲ ਜਵੇਹਰੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੜੁ ॥
    andhar laal javaeharee guramukh har naam parr ||
    The rubies and gems are found within it; the Gurmukh chants the Name of the Lord.

    ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਅਤਿ ਸੋਹਣਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਿੜੁ ॥
    har kaa mandhar sareer ath sohanaa har har naam dhirr ||
    The body, the Mansion of the Lord, is very beautiful, when the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, is implanted deep within.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 952


    Gurbani is very clear. It is not by observing superficial religious practices either of Hindu or Muslim that one obtains mukti, which is not the same as finding God/being authentically spiritual, but by:

    1. Following a True Guru
    2. One gets freed from the cycle of birth and death -reincarnation
    3. Practicing Naam Jap, naam of God in this pauri is given as Har, Har which means Vishnu.
    4. Having the good actions which lead to positive karma.

    Tell me, are those things the same as "Islamic teachings?"

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •