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Thread: Posting for Willie - Part 2

  1. #1
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    Posting for Willie - Part 2

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Willie wrote the following:
    The vedas , for all they are claimed to say , don't really say anything about reincarnation. At least, no in clear words. And talk about a hard text to read , well you better be talking about the vedas. Only 6% of which are available to be read, in the first place. So as a little mental exercise , think about this. What would the old testament be like if we only had 6% of it to look at?

    Namaste Willie,

    Addressing reincarnation ...
    It would be good for you to post your thoughts on this as we have addressed them. Not only can we read of the results of ones life cycle in the Chandogya Upanishad as part of the Panchagni Vidya told to Svetaketu, we can also read of the path of the liberated (jivanmukti) and their path upon dropping this body. This is in the Katha Upanishad Canto 2, valli 3.

    Now that said,
    IMHO this conversation needs to have purpose (prayojana). You have been reasonable about stating your doubts (samshaya) which is how one learns. Yet at some point the discussion needs to blossom where one considers other POV's and at least chews on it and does something with it.

    What an I alluding to here? It is with good intention (I believe) the members posting on this matter are acting in good faith to serve up ideas for your consideration, this is the quality of HDF. This infers on your part that you will then consider some of the positions and readings that are suggested. The discussion (vada) then remains positive and open and avoids polemics (jalpa).

    I think you have stated your case well, and many have received it in that manner. Yet if nothing is done with the information then we are playing 'bring me a rock'. This is the conscious and some times un-conscious position of trying to draw conclusions (nirnaya), yet with wavering input and directional change:
    Bring me a rock... no, I want a bigger rock. Yes, but the big rock is not blue. Yes, the rock is big and blue yet it has sharp corners. Now the rock is big, blue and without sharp corners, what is it's origin? I Need one from Italy.
    You can see that the well-intended are trying to satisfy a need that is not well defined. We then get into generalizing - (samanyacchala) and making challenging statements because the possibility of the Whole being wrong due to it's part being in question.

    Point to be made: the Veda's are in question due to your observation they do not call out reincarnation. This has been addressed and submitted to your good nature, yet not acknowledged (as yet by you).

    Next item: The Veda's are only 6% present and accounted for. Multiple points of view have been offered for your consideration by people that have or are now studying this knowledge.

    Now, to make this something other then a disagreement on first principles (nigrahasthana) it is now in your court to ponder these points offered and compare and contrast them to your thinking; That is, if there has been an evolution in thinking and some point has been changed or where you may continue to have more doubts.
    If this is not considered, then we are playing Bring me a Rock. We all can then cease and desist, as there are more important discussions one can entertain.

    You can restrain your breath a 1,000 times dailty, but one's ignorance will not vanish without the wisdom of the Upanishads - Swami Sivanananda

    thank you for your time on this matter.
    Last edited by yajvan; 27 May 2007 at 11:57 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Posting for Willie - Part 2

    So time to look at reincarnation. A atman inhabits a lot of different bodies until it is refined enough to move to a higher lever, or maybe learned enough to move to a higher level woud be a better analogy. It is an interesting theory , although I cannot seem to remember any of the previous lives, which is too bad. As that information might help in this one.

    And, of course, the laws of kharma are applied to each life and can hold over for several lives, until so wrong is righted.

    What so other religions have to say . Well in most there is one life and the soul has to make the right choices on the first go around. Brutal to be sure but some what more efficient. Sure there are sins to be commitied and consequences to go along with then.

    So other than the idea of many lives for the atman or one, there are the rules that have to be followed. Not much real difference in the chance to escaping the rules, which get everyone into trouble. With out these rules thing would be easier by far.

    This bring up the question of how much value humans hold in the great scheme of thing. In hinduism the atman is on loan , so to speak , to the body to keep it alive and to report back on what it is doing. In the christian bodies are issued a soul that is in essence the spirit part of that body. And the soul knows everything the body does and in some sense becomed the spiritual of that person upon death and has to face to consequences of the body's and its action.

    Now whether or not either of these methods puts much value in people is open for thought. God causes people to come into existance either by manipulation of inert material or through evolution and then what? Sits around and wonders why people don't do what it right all the time and they never offer up may thankyous for the existance.

    In islam, Satan was thrown out of paradise because he would not bow to man, which Allah cosidered his greatest creation. Some would say that this gives man a leg up over angels.

    But all these ideas are based on the writtings of people who knew which side of the bread the butter was on.

    I guess that I will look at these other writtings that you have mentioned. As the vedas sure are incomplete and not statistically valid.

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    Re: Posting for Willie - Part 2

    Namaste Willie,

    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    It is an interesting theory , although I cannot seem to remember any of the previous lives, which is too bad. As that information might help in this one.
    Through yoga meditation, a seeker can obtain powers that may be used to remember past lives; it takes time, but possible. Bishop C.W. Leadbeater, the famous theosophist and clairvoyant, starts his book How Theosophy Came To Me with his incarnation as a disciple under Pythagoras. I haven't gone through this long article HOW WE REMEMBER OUR PAST LIVES by C.Jinarajadasa, another Theosophist, but maybe it gives some idea. The article can be read at http://www.theosophical.ca/RememberPastLives.htm

    But do you really think that remembering past lives would help your present?

    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    Well in most there is one life and the soul has to make the right choices on the first go around. Brutal to be sure but some what more efficient. Sure there are sins to be commitied and consequences to go along with then.
    A single thought about doing ill to a person or committing adultery or coveting money and power adds enough karmic colors, let alone their actions! Where is the question of efficiency of a single life in such circumstances?

    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    This bring up the question of how much value humans hold in the great scheme of thing. In hinduism the atman is on loan, so to speak, to the body to keep it alive and to report back on what it is doing.
    In Hinduism, the concept of Atman (the real Self) and the Jiva (ahamkara) (the reflected self) is somewhat as follows:

    The Atman, which is a spark of the Brahman the One God, is reflected in the matter of the body as Jiva, just as water in a pot reflects the sky. The Atman simply watches what the Jiva does in association with its body. When the awareness is within this matter of the body, the mind thinks that Jiva is the real Self and feels that it is associated with the body. Meditation helps the Jiva to rise above the surface and look at the real sky.

    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    In the christian bodies are issued a soul that is in essence the spirit part of that body. And the soul knows everything the body does and in some sense becomed the spiritual of that person upon death and has to face to consequences of the body's and its action.
    This is how the concepts in Christianity are muddled:

    -- The soul is the spirit part of the body: agreed. The spirit is the spirit of God.

    -- The soul knows everything the body does...: how can the body do anything without the involvement of soul at all?

    -- and in some sense becomed the spiritual of that person upon death and has to face to consequences of the body's and its action.:

    What is the meaning of the term 'spiritual' here? Is it that the soul upon death of the body acquires the sins of actions of the body and becomes 'colored'? Then how can it be 'spiritual' (meaning 'identical to the spirit of God')?

    And what are the consequences the spiritual soul has to face upon death of the body? Is it that if it has some sin that colors it, it would rot in eternal hell and get destroyed eventually? If that is the case, what is the meaning of Jesus taking the sins of humanity on him upon his death? Does Christianity have no compassion/regard for the common seeker, since there could be no ordinary man on earth who is not free from sin?

    I wonder how Christians plod on this life, without inquiring about such concepts in their religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    Now whether or not either of these methods puts much value in people is open for thought. God causes people to come into existance either by manipulation of inert material or through evolution and then what? Sits around and wonders why people don't do what it right all the time and they never offer up may thankyous for the existance.
    Yes, God just watches, remaining in his SatChitAnanda state, not by doing a 'sit around' but by doing a 'sit in'. This is because he is, first of all, a just God. He showers his grace and compassion all around like the sunlight, and those souls who get it in sufficient strength progress faster towards liberation.

    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    But all these ideas are based on the writtings of people who knew which side of the bread the butter was on.
    A difference between science and spirituality is that when science puts up a fact after due experimentation, it is taken on faith and the common man does not bother or have the facilities to verify it. With spirituality, the common man must necessarily inquire into, verify and experience every truth put up by those 'who knew which side of the bread the butter was on' to progress towards Self-Realization!

    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    I guess that I will look at these other writtings that you have mentioned. As the vedas sure are incomplete and not statistically valid. [/SIZE][/FONT]
    And there you go again!

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    Re: Posting for Willie - Part 2

    Namaste to all,

    I find it funny to hear that only 6% of Vedas remain. Who knows the other 94%? To know that only 6% is available, one must have seen, read and quantified the other 94%? eh?

    And if one has done reading/knowing of the other 94%, then surely that 94 % exists (albiet beyond Willie and Atanu's cognition capacity?)


    The problem, dear Willie, is a lack of discrimination. If HDF is suffering, it is suffering from some lack of discrimination. But so is suffering the whole world.

    I hope you will think about what has been written and will not get lost in emotions.

    It is said that God only deludes. I find this delusion (and so illumination also) happens through Vaisnava literature -- specifically through dvaita literature and devotion (that includes 95% of world religion).


    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 28 May 2007 at 08:54 AM. Reason: To correct the perspective
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Posting for Willie - Part 2

    Namaste Willie,

    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    But all these ideas are based on the writtings of people who knew which side of the bread the butter was on.

    I guess that I will look at these other writtings that you have mentioned. As the vedas sure are incomplete and not statistically valid.
    I am afraid that you are a bit mistaken about the Veda, especially in comparing it to holy books of other religions. Often when speaking of religion, people say Christians have the Bible, Muslims have the Quran, Hindus have the Veda, etc., so it gives us an impression that the Veda for Hinduism is similar to the Bible and Quran, for Christians and Muslims respectively. This is, IMHO, a mistake to say. The Vedic texts have a different place and relevance for Sanatana Dharma. When one wants to learn about Christianity, one begins to read the Bible; when one wants to learn about Islam, one begins to read the Quran; however, when one wants to learn about Sanatana Dharma, one does NOT start reading the Vedic Samhitas (hymn collections). Reading the Vedic Samhitas first is a wrong approach taken by many, and perhaps it ought to be that the Samhitas are read last, after one has finished studying all the basics, otherwise they do not make sense.

    Many have and still begin to read the Samhitas first, and come to the conclusion that early on the Sages had no belief in reincarnation, no belief in karma, no real set belief in Dharma, no belief in Atman, no belief in a unitary Godhead, and all these beliefs were later introduced into by the advent of the Upanishads. This conclusion is based on the assumption that if the ancient sages had these beliefs, then they would have expressly mentioned these doctrines. The two flaws with this reasoning are: (a) the Samhita portions were written to be read by a common person who wishes to understand religious doctrine (as with Bible and Quran); and (b) the language (and immense amount of symbolism) of the older Vedic texts is clear and plain enough, so that we may, without deep study, find the true meaning of what is being said.

    It is true that the Samhitas came chronologically before other portions especially the Upanishads, wherein the language and doctrine is more clearly explained. However, within the Samhita portions is present, albeit in embryonic form as Vedic scholars call it, almost all of the beliefs of modern day Sanatana Dharma. The lack of any clear mention of reincarnation or any other doctrine does not indicate that these doctrines were not known or fully developed, but only that elaboration of doctrine was not the express purpose or intention of the Samhitas. The Samhitas are about mantra and shabda, meter and word, as has been explained to you already. The meanings of the hymns were to be extracted by the Guru and imparted to the disciples. Tradition tell us that by the Upanishadic age, the meaning and import of the older portions was largely lost, and so the sages deemed it necessary to reaffirm the original teachings in a clearer format to their disciples. Sri Aurobindo, who is no less a modern-day Maharishi writes, The Rishis of the Upanishads followed another method. They sought to recover the lost or waning knowledge by meditation and spiritual experience and they used the text of the ancient mantras as a prop or an authority for their own intuitions and perceptions; or else the Vedic Word was a seed of thought and vision by which they recovered old truths in new forms. What they found they expressed in other terms more intelligible to the age in which they lived (Secret of the Veda, p 12).

    So, you see Willie, if you or I begin to read the Vedic Samhitas and dont see the doctrines of Sanatana Dharma jump out at us, it should really be of no surprise because: (a) that is not the purpose of the Samhitas, and (b) we (this includes me) are not quite ready to understand them, as we have not quite finished our basic studies yet. I hope you can appreciate these points.

    OM Shanti,
    A.



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