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Thread: Respect for all religions is not truthful.

  1. #1
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    Respect for all religions is not truthful.

    In my life I have had several awkward encounters with people whose religious beliefs and practices I found objectionable. The ideal would seem to be respect the person but not the belief. By this I mean that silence can be maintained with respect to the practices and beliefs themselves while the person is treated at least cordially.

    However when people chose to totally identify with their beliefs and practices (as I do with mine) then it can become difficult if not impossible without engaging in falsity. For instance there are Swamis who will speak of Abrahamic theistic religions with a tear of love in their eye and some of those same Swamis will think nothing of roundly condemning Hindu sects which they don't agree with.

    I love the Gita and if people have beliefs or engage in practices that are diametrically opposed to the teachings of the Gita then it may be my duty to not associate with them; and I feel that I should probably keep my mouth shut unless they ask me respectfully for my honest opinion. However if I was administrating a 'Hindu' community then where would I draw the line? People can be very bold with their beliefs and practices and will keenly seek to spread their ideology if given the chance. However blanket statements like 'No ____ or _____ allowed.' are seen as deeply disrespectful and can lead to serious problems.

    Specifically I cannot harmonize with the Gita the teachings of Abrahamic theistic religions nor the beliefs and practices of certain sects within Africa (voodoo cults) and India such as for instance the devotees of the Bikaner Karni Mata temple and Aghori Sadhus.

    From what I have read Sri Shankara had no problem calling something out if he didn't
    agree with it but haven't the mores of India changed since then?

    hari aum
    Last edited by R Gitananda; 27 April 2014 at 11:35 AM. Reason: added link
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

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    Re: Respect for all religions is not truthful.

    Quote Originally Posted by R Gitananda View Post
    In my life I have had several awkward encounters with people whose religious beliefs and practices I found objectionable. The ideal would seem to be respect the person but not the belief. By this I mean that silence can be maintained with respect to the practices and beliefs themselves while the person is treated at least cordially.

    However when people chose to totally identify with their beliefs and practices (as I do with mine) then it can become difficult if not impossible without engaging in falsity. For instance there are Swamis who will speak of Abrahamic theistic religions with a tear of love in their eye and some of those same Swamis will think nothing of roundly condemning Hindu sects which they don't agree with.

    I love the Gita and if people have beliefs or engage in practices that are diametrically opposed to the teachings of the Gita then it may be my duty to not associate with them; and I feel that I should probably keep my mouth shut unless they ask me respectfully for my honest opinion. However if I was administrating a 'Hindu' community then where would I draw the line? People can be very bold with their beliefs and practices and will keenly seek to spread their ideology if given the chance. However blanket statements like 'No ____ or _____ allowed.' are seen as deeply disrespectful and can lead to serious problems.

    Specifically I cannot harmonize with the Gita the teachings of Abrahamic theistic religions nor the beliefs and practices of certain sects within Africa (voodoo cults) and India such as for instance the devotees of the Bikaner Karni Mata temple and Aghori Sadhus.

    From what I have read Sri Shankara had no problem calling something out if he didn't
    agree with it but haven't the mores of India changed since then?

    hari aum
    Well Aghoris are there since forever and will be there for eternity They don't need other people to harmonize with themselves. They don't ask for anyone's opinion. They live non-judgmental life. Calling out is ok when someone intrudes on your rights. People of Abhrahmaic countries in non-secular environment may do that but certainly the devotees of Karni Mata temple don't do that. So better don't think about them if your emotions are so fragile.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Respect for all religions is not truthful.

    Your advice does have some utility since it can eliminate the discussion of most controversial topics; "better don't think about them".

    However I think the real question is "Do you think that respect for all religions is truthful?"

    hari aum


    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    Well Aghoris are there since forever and will be there for eternity They don't need other people to harmonize with themselves. They don't ask for anyone's opinion. They live non-judgmental life. Calling out is ok when someone intrudes on your rights. People of Abhrahmaic countries in non-secular environment may do that but certainly the devotees of Karni Mata temple don't do that. So better don't think about them if your emotions are so fragile.
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

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    Re: Respect for all religions is not truthful.

    However I think the real question is "Do you think that respect for all religions is truthful?"
    A religion written or followed with intention of dividing society into groups (Right vs Wrong) does not have any truth in it. What is important is what you take of your religion. A non-sectarian Sanatan Dharmi would not see people who go to Karni mata temple as people whose beliefs are "opposite" to beliefs of people who follow Gita. Aghoris like wise are Siddhas and even though they are not orthodox they are essentially Sanatan Dharmi too. If anything Aghoris are the most non-missionary minded people. Definitely they don't keenly spread their ideology or even think about spreading their ideology. Any religion (especially sects of Sanatan Dharm) which does not preaches bigotry, hate and forceful violence on people of other religion is fine. If there are differences in rituals and practices then the simplest thing one can do is not follow those rituals which does not appeals to oneself. However if a religion spreads hatred and enforces its belief on you then for sure you have the right to not only disassociate with their members but even fight against the discrimination they might be subjecting you too.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Respect for all religions is not truthful.

    Hari Om!

    Maybe there's a bigger picture here and perhaps even a fine line that is best not crossed, or at least in this forum. But, only my humble opinion. Please recall that the Abrahamic portion of the forums has been closed to further posts. If I am off base here, please feel free to say so.

    While we have the issue on the table, could someone enlighten on the Arya Samag? Would they not be considered Hindu yet not subscribe to deity worship and the like. What constitutes a true Hindu or Sanatan Dharmi? Again - bigger picture?

    Om

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    Re: Respect for all religions is not truthful.

    Namaste Gitananda,

    Quote Originally Posted by R Gitananda View Post
    "Do you think that respect for all religions is truthful?"
    Isavasya has given a beautiful statement in his post :

    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Isavasya
    A religion written or followed with intention of dividing society into groups (Right vs Wrong) does not have any truth in it.
    "

    Dear friend,

    There is no religion on this earth which is not tainted with some untruth and there is no religion which has no truth and there is no religion which cannot lead you the Truth. I have read Qu'ran and I have read New Testament of the Bible and at first I had this reaction, "This appears so childish in front of our Upanishads/Bhagwad Gita. How can this lead to the Truth ?". But these religions too have produced great saints. It has been very difficult for me to accept Islam as "true religion". But the same Islam produced great Sufi saints e.g. Jalaluddin Mohammad Rumi, RAbia Basri, Khawaja Hazarat Moinuddin Chisti, Hazarat Nizamuddin Auliya etc. Please take out some time and read about them.

    Can a seemingly belief of ignorance lead us to Truth ? Now this question has been framed outside the realm of that religion which we are thinking as "not-true". You must go within and look at what the saints believed and followed. The Sufis believe that Q'uran has various layers of truth and one should not take it literally as it appears in verses. They have their explanation of controversial verses. We too, Hindu Dharma have many sayings/verses/beliefs which appear controversial but to a saint of that sect, it is quite logical with its explanation. In our Hindu Dharma there are many scriptures and we find that there is conflict in statements of these scriptures ... but that is explained by our saints and that satisfies us. When an ordinary man looks at that one gets bewildered but not a knowledgeable one. Sankaracharya who was a ardent follower of Advaita and who gave Advaita VedAnta to Hindu Dharma didn't criticise Murti Pooja but encouraged it. Do you know, Why ? Please think over it and you would get a good answer.

    Let's not waste our energy in finding faults with other Dharmas/religions. It is a long way / a very long SAdhnA to reach the Ultimate. The life-time is too short for that. Let us focus on our own path. Such thoughts lead us to wrong directions. It won't be wrong to say that such thoughts are thoughts of Satan.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 27 April 2014 at 02:16 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  7. #7

    Re: Respect for all religions is not truthful.

    Namaste,

    Moinuddin chisti preached against idolatry , invited Muhammad Ghori to invade India , abducted rajput princesses and had this dargah built on two destroyed Hindu temples(Dhai din ka jhopra) .He and his followers used to slaughter cows inside the temple and eat kebab


    Literary evidence:

    "In Ajmer he destroyed the pillars and foundations of the idol temples and built in their stead mosques and colleges, and the precepts of Islăm, and the customs of the law were divulged and established"-(Muhammad sadruddin Hasan Nizămî page 215)

    "we have seized prithviraj and handed him over to the army of islam"--chisti(Nizami page 232)

    Muslims still rejoice at the iconoclasm of this bloodthirsty militant. They credit him with the islamization of India

    http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ule-over-India

    Nizamuddin played a prominent role in the jihad against Hindus by nasiruddin qabacha at Multan .He condemned Indians as "black ugliest Hindu crow faced infidels who should be sent to the gates of hell" .He zealously endorsed sharia. When malik kafir subjugated South India, he gave a quote "what is this victory?I am waiting for further victories?" .His bigoted disciple Amir Khusrau ridiculed 'tree worship and idol worship of the Hindu kings. He was delighted at the slughter of hindus.--"The heads of the brahmans danced from their necks fell to the ground and blood flowed in torrents. Indeed , Allah is great! " (Elliot and Dawson 8 .page 81-83)

    what on earth were you thinking when you called them "great" ? It 's a shame that Hindus get insulted even on Hindu forums .Please recheck before you write anything offensive

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Gitananda,



    Isavasya has given a beautiful statement in his post :

    ""

    Dear friend,

    There is no religion on this earth which is not tainted with some untruth and there is no religion which has no truth and there is no religion which cannot lead you the Truth. I have read Qu'ran and I have read New Testament of the Bible and at first I had this reaction, "This appears so childish in front of our Upanishads/Bhagwad Gita. How can this lead to the Truth ?". But these religions too have produced great saints. It has been very difficult for me to accept Islam as "true religion". But the same Islam produced great Sufi saints e.g. Jalaluddin Mohammad Rumi, RAbia Basri, Khawaja Hazarat Moinuddin Chisti, Hazarat Nizamuddin Auliya etc. Please take out some time and read about them.

    Can a seemingly belief of ignorance lead us to Truth ? Now this question has been framed outside the realm of that religion which we are thinking as "not-true". You must go within and look at what the saints believed and followed. The Sufis believe that Q'uran has various layers of truth and one should not take it literally as it appears in verses. They have their explanation of controversial verses. We too, Hindu Dharma have many sayings/verses/beliefs which appear controversial but to a saint of that sect, it is quite logical with its explanation. In our Hindu Dharma there are many scriptures and we find that there is conflict in statements of these scriptures ... but that is explained by our saints and that satisfies us. When an ordinary man looks at that one gets bewildered but not a knowledgeable one. Sankaracharya who was a ardent follower of Advaita and who gave Advaita VedAnta to Hindu Dharma didn't criticise Murti Pooja but encouraged it. Do you know, Why ? Please think over it and you would get a good answer.

    Let's not waste our energy in finding faults with other Dharmas/religions. It is a long way / a very long SAdhnA to reach the Ultimate. The life-time is too short for that. Let us focus on our own path. Such thoughts lead us to wrong directions. It won't be wrong to say that such thoughts are thoughts of Satan.

    OM
    Last edited by Alter ego; 27 April 2014 at 08:06 AM.

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    Re: Respect for all religions is not truthful.

    Gitananda, I completely agree with you that it's neither intellectually honest nor truthful to "respect all religions." As you seem to suggest, some religions aren't worthy of respect. Christianity, for example, teaches that we worship false gods and will go to eternal hell. I'm not going to respect that. Heck, I'm not even going to tolerate a religion that doesn't respect my own religion's right to exist, and to that end I think the Indian states that ban Christian proselytizing are absolutely right to do so.

    People are always worthy of a priori respect. I don't think one can say the same thing about religions. It's unfortunate that Bollywood currently glamorizes other religions while regularly denigrating Hinduism. Maybe this culture of self-hatred is why the swamis you mentioned act as they do. India, I feel, requires a fundamental shift in our culture's attitude towards our own religion.

    One note of caution about disparaging "Abrahamic faiths." I'd be careful to separate Judaism from its two younger brothers. Jews almost universally respect other religions, and their own religion prohibits proselytizing. The Jewish American community has generally been a friend to the Hindu American community, and it would be very foolish of us to drive our friends away!

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    Re: Respect for all religions is not truthful.

    Hari Aum

    C. Smith, I don't think that my post would fit into the Abrahamic portion of the forums as it is no more about Abrahamic religions than it is about voodoo cults within Africa which I also referenced. However I can refrain from mentioning it further if that is the standard here. If you are correct that there is "a fine line that is best not crossed" then perhaps the forum 'Hot Topics' should also be closed to further posts; that way less fine lines will be crossed.

    I would also like to interject something about the Gita even though you didn't mention it in your reply. My mention of the Gita in my post was not to suggest that the Gita is the only valid scripture for which to judge what is sattvic. It is my standard and so I cited it. Another person might hold (for example) the Vedas or Brahma Sutras to be their standard.

    My idea is that while we must always respect people as much as possible we can not respect all ideas that people have. When we pretend to respect all ideas then we are upholding one ideal - that of mardavam--gentleness - at the expense of another ideal - truthfulness. I think that ideals have a hiearchy and satyam--truthfulness is the higher ideal. Otherwise Sri Ramaji would not have caused such pain to his great father and to Mata Sita Devi and great reformers like Sri Shankara would not have offended anyone; instead they would have just said words that were pleasing to the ears of everyone they met.

    Also if mardavam were a higher ideal than satyam then discussion or debate of anything that might be considered controversial should stop. I think the balance is found in a person being as harmless as possible without sacrificing what they think is true. If circumstances don't allow someone to uphold satyam in their speech then I think that silence should be preferable to equivocation.

    Hari Aum


    Quote Originally Posted by c.smith View Post
    Hari Om!

    Maybe there's a bigger picture here and perhaps even a fine line that is best not crossed, or at least in this forum. But, only my humble opinion. Please recall that the Abrahamic portion of the forums has been closed to further posts. If I am off base here, please feel free to say so.

    While we have the issue on the table, could someone enlighten on the Arya Samag? Would they not be considered Hindu yet not subscribe to deity worship and the like. What constitutes a true Hindu or Sanatan Dharmi? Again - bigger picture?

    Om
    Last edited by R Gitananda; 27 April 2014 at 04:12 PM.
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

  10. #10
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    Re: Respect for all religions is not truthful.

    Sanjaya, my intent was not to disparage their faith. I posted a link to a chapter of their own scripture and I do not think that they will find their own scripture offensive - only worthy of an explanation perhaps. However as a devotee of the Gita I cannot 'respect' what does not appear to be sattvic according to the Gita. I can respect the person depending on how they live their lives - but not necessarily their beliefs.

    hari aum


    Quote Originally Posted by sanjaya View Post
    Gitananda, I completely agree with you that it's neither intellectually honest nor truthful to "respect all religions." As you seem to suggest, some religions aren't worthy of respect. Christianity, for example, teaches that we worship false gods and will go to eternal hell. I'm not going to respect that. Heck, I'm not even going to tolerate a religion that doesn't respect my own religion's right to exist, and to that end I think the Indian states that ban Christian proselytizing are absolutely right to do so.

    People are always worthy of a priori respect. I don't think one can say the same thing about religions. It's unfortunate that Bollywood currently glamorizes other religions while regularly denigrating Hinduism. Maybe this culture of self-hatred is why the swamis you mentioned act as they do. India, I feel, requires a fundamental shift in our culture's attitude towards our own religion.

    One note of caution about disparaging "Abrahamic faiths." I'd be careful to separate Judaism from its two younger brothers. Jews almost universally respect other religions, and their own religion prohibits proselytizing. The Jewish American community has generally been a friend to the Hindu American community, and it would be very foolish of us to drive our friends away!
    Last edited by R Gitananda; 27 April 2014 at 11:23 AM.
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

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