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Thread: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

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    Re: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

    Originally Posted by anucarh
    Namaste,

    This might be of interest.

    In chapter eight of the book Vaiṣṇavism: Its Philosophy, Theology, and Religious Discipline, over the course of sixteen pages S. M. Srinivasa Chari, who is apparently Vaḍakalai, argues on the basis of many important texts and authorities (including the R̥g Veda Samhitā) that Mother Śrī is absolutely equal to Śrīman-Nārāyaṇa in her attributes and in her status, in fact in every respect. He quotes Śrī Yāmunācārya, who identified Mother Śrī as “the Supreme Person” and “the Supreme Sovereign of the universe." Furthermore, according to Śrī Yāmunācārya, without Mother Śrī liberation (mokṣa) is impossible. Chari argues on the basis of Śrī Rāmānujācārya’s Śaraṇāgati-gadya that “she possesses all of the characteristics of the Lord as appropriate to his status (anurūpa) and also as liked by him (svābhimata).” He observes that the Viṣṇu Purāṇa teaches that she is eternal and all-pervading, just like Śrīman-Nārāyaṇa. She is said to be forever inseparable (anapāyinī) from him in this text and in several others. Even in the physical attributes of the forms they manifest they are equal, as various texts attest. Her glory (mahimā) is infinite and she is “infinite in character.” According to Śrī Vedānta Deśika, writes Chari, “the divine couple together constitutes the para-tattva,” the one ultimate reality. This conclusion is based on the teaching of the Pācarātra Saṁhitās and the Viṣṇu Purāṇa.

    For Chari the only differences between the two divine persons are Mother Śrī’s possession of “motherly qualities” and their differences in their chosen roles. The Lord punishes sins. Mother Śrī never punishes sins. Mother intercedes for devotees.

    praṇām


    Namaste Ji,

    Thanks a lot for delineating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post


    Namaste Anucarh,

    ..Tenkalai sect as 'aNU'. But, Sri Velukkudi Krishnan clarifies that mother Mahalakshmi is aNU but 'sUkshma' andon association with Sriman Narayana, she becomes 'vibhU' (all-pervading). So the difference between what you have stated and what he states is that mother Mahalakshmi is indeed all that you have quoted but she acquires some of these properties by association with Sriman Narayana.
    Namaste Ji,

    Did Sri
    Velukkudi Krishnan speak about any verses in the Vedas that speak of Devi Lakshmi having aNU nature and require Sriman Narayana to become vibhU?It would be good if we can know the scriptural origin of this theory.
    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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    Re: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram116040 View Post
    Namaste Ji,

    Did Sri
    Velukkudi Krishnan speak about any verses in the Vedas that speak of Devi Lakshmi having aNU nature and require Sriman Narayana to become vibhU?It would be good if we can know the scriptural origin of this theory.
    It may have something to do with the view that according to Vaishnavam, all jivatmas are viewed as 'females'. All males of the 3 worlds, including the 33 crore devas (who are all males) are all 'females' and only Sriman Narayana is the 'male' (or 'paramatma'). So applying reverse logic, we come to understand that 'all females are then naturally jivatmas', and this includes mother Sri.

    Even in some references on Sri Radha-Krishna, I have read that their association is considered to be the same as that of 'Jivatma-Paramatma' association or unity.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    It may have something to do with the view that according to Vaishnavam, all jivatmas are viewed as 'females'. All males of the 3 worlds, including the 33 crore devas (who are all males) are all 'females' and only Sriman Narayana is the 'male' (or 'paramatma'). So applying reverse logic, we come to understand that 'all females are then naturally jivatmas', and this includes mother Sri.

    Even in some references on Sri Radha-Krishna, I have read that their association is considered to be the same as that of 'Jivatma-Paramatma' association or unity.
    Namaste Ji,

    I was thinking for a few days about what you said above.I listened to Sri Velukkudi Krishnan's discourse where he explains this point based on Sri Pillai Lokacharya shlokam about the types of relationships between Paramatma and devotee.

    I got a weird doubt,especially about the Pativrata-naari relationship.
    Let us assume Sri Devi is Kula Devata of 'X'.It is said by the elders that Kula Devata is like one's Mother/Father.'X' is wedded to a Pati(here,meaning devoted to Sriman Narayana).'X' behaves as a noble Pativrata.In the discourse it was said that for a Pativrata Stri Pati(i.e Sriman Narayana) is the only greatest one.Now how can 'X' say Pati(i.e. Bhagavan) is greater than one's own parent(Kula Devata Sri Devi)?Can 'X' make such a declaration?I hope you are able get this curious situation.What would you say about Sri Devi here?Is she(parent) not of equal importance as Pati(i.e. Sriman Narayana)?
    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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    Re: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram116040 View Post

    I got a weird doubt,especially about the Pativrata-naari relationship.
    Let us assume Sri Devi is Kula Devata of 'X'.It is said by the elders that Kula Devata is like one's Mother/Father.'X' is wedded to a Pati(here,meaning devoted to Sriman Narayana).'X' behaves as a noble Pativrata.In the discourse it was said that for a Pativrata Stri Pati(i.e Sriman Narayana) is the only greatest one.Now how can 'X' say Pati(i.e. Bhagavan) is greater than one's own parent(Kula Devata Sri Devi)?Can 'X' make such a declaration?I hope you are able get this curious situation.What would you say about Sri Devi here?Is she(parent) not of equal importance as Pati(i.e. Sriman Narayana)?
    Dear Ram ji,

    I am not getting your question right. It sounds like to a particular lady, if Sri Mahalakshmi is kula devata, then can she say that her husband's devata Sriman Narayana is still the greatest? Please correct my understanding...

    Also my views are not authoritative.. just sharing what little I learnt.

    I do not think Sri Mahalakshmi is any less than Bhagwan. As Anucarh ji's post stated, she enjoys equal status in every way as that of bhagwan. It is just that she acquires some of the traits like all-pervasiveness from bhagwan. Other than this key-point, I do not think she differs much from bhagwan.

    I hope those deeply knowledgeable in the sampradaya would reply.

    Regards.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Dear Ram ji,

    I am not getting your question right. It sounds like to a particular lady, if Sri Mahalakshmi is kula devata, then can she say that her husband's devata Sriman Narayana is still the greatest? Please correct my understanding...
    Namaste Ji,

    You got it right but it is not about who is greater but more about equality.

    Even my knowledge of the Siddantha is little but from whatever I heard and read Sri Devi is not equal to Sriman Narayana according to Thenkalai Sri Vaishnavam.

    I do not think Sri Mahalakshmi is any less than Bhagwan. As Anucarh ji's post stated, she enjoys equal status in every way as that of bhagwan.
    This is the Vadakalai position on this issue.

    It is just that she acquires some of the traits like all-pervasiveness from bhagwan.
    This is what the whole issue is about,do the Vedas support such a theory that Sri Devi possesses anu nature only and requires Sriman Narayana to become Vibhu in nature?How can one say she is Jivatma only but not Saguna Parabrahma ?How can one say she cannot grant moksha independently?If the Thenkalai Sri Vaishnavam has such a theory then there must be something in the ChaturVedas that they can claim in support of their view,is there any?All we need is a few quotes from the Vedas.
    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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    Re: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

    I will try posting in a Sri Vaishnava group I am a member of.

    I tried posting questions to Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami at his facebook page, but he hasn't responded to anyone's question, lot of people ask questions for his posts.

    I hope the Sri Vaishnava group will be helpful. Will let you know.

    Thanks.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

    Namaste Ram ji,

    Kindly note the following questions: I raised them at the said SriVaishnava group yesterday:

    Recently (about a month ago), through the Facebook page 'Kinchitkaram Trust', Swami Velukkudi Krishnan had stated that Sri Mahalakshmi Thaayaar is 'aNU' (atomic) whereas on becoming one with Sriman Narayana, she becomes 'vibhU' (all pervading). I want clarifications on the same:

    1. Does 'aNU" mean that Sri Mahalakshmi is a Jeevatman and that on attaining paramapadha and becoming one with Sriman Narayana, she becomes 'vibhU' (all-pervading) like him?

    2. Do the Vedas support such a theory that Sri Devi possesses anu nature only and requires Sriman Narayana to become Vibhu in nature?

    3. What is a 'Saguna Brahman' and is Sri Mahalakshmi one?

    4. Does she grant moksha independently (that is without the need for Sriman Narayana)?

    5. Can a few quotes from vedas be provided to validate any reply?

    So far I got 3 replies. I'm giving them to you one by one:

    Reply 1:


    From current Acharyas all the way up to Bhagavad Ramanuja --> Swamy AlavandhAr --> Swamy NammazhvAr --> Vishvaksenar --> ThAyAr --> PerumAl, we consider every one of them from Nityaviboothi who descended on earth for our salvation. It is a sin to consider any one of them as a Jeeva Muktha. So no question of Anu becoming Vibhu.

    Coming to ThAyAr, she is one step special, even while being in Nitya Viboothi, she is inseperable to the Lord. That is why they are referred to as Divya Dhampathis. Recall the words of Purusha Suktha "HreeschathE Lakshmischa PatnyAu", it does not say Hari's consort is Lakshmi (probably because all of us are considered Sthree seeking his Lordship) but Lakshmi's consort is Hari.

    In every Avatar the Lords Eyes and Srivathsam (where Mahalakshmi resides) are the giveaways that he is the Supreme.
    Reply 2:

    Kindly listen to Sri U Ve Navalpakkam Kannan (Yagnyam) Swami’s Sri Desika Prabhandha Upanyasams parts 20, 21 & 22. You’ll get answers to your questions as blessed by Swami Desikan.



    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    UpanyAsa Recordings:

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Audio – All Parts:

    https://www.mediafire.com/folder/a82...r.Kannan-Swami



    Above folder contains the following upanyAsams.



    Part 001: Mar 12th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – அருள் தரும்

    Part 002: Mar 19th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – அடியவர் பால் மெய்யை வைத்து

    Part 003: Mar 26th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – மெய்யை வைத்துத் தெருள்

    Part 004: Apr 02nd 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – நின்ற தெய்வநாயக

    Part 005: Apr 09th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – தெய்வநாயக நின் அருள் என்னும் சீர்

    Part 006: Apr 16th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – நின் அருள் என்னும் சீர் (Contd.)

    Part 007: Apr 23rd 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – அருள் எனும் சீர் ஓர் அரிவையானதென

    Part 008: Apr 30th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – இருள் செக எமக்கோர் இன்னொளி விளக்காய்

    Part 009: May 07th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – இருள் செக எமக்கோர் இன்னொளி விளக்காய் (Contd.)

    Part 010: May 17th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – மணிவரை அன்ன நின் திரு உருவில்

    Part 011: May 24th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – மணிவரை அன்ன நின் திரு உருவில் (Contd.)

    Part 012: May 31st 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – அணியமர் ஆகத்து

    Part 013: Jun 07th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – அணியமர் ஆகத்து (Contd.)

    Part 014: Jun 14th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – அணியமர் ஆகத்து அலங்கலாய் இலங்கி

    Part 015: Jun 21st 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – அணியமர் ஆகத்து அலங்கலாய் இலங்கி (Contd.)

    Part 016: Jun 28th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – அணியமர் ஆகத்து அலங்கலாய் இலங்கி (Contd.)

    Part 017: Jul 05th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – அணியமர் ஆகத்து அலங்கலாய் இலங்கி (Contd.)

    Part 018: Jul 12th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – அணியமர் ஆகத்து அலங்கலாய் இலங்கி (Contd.)

    Part 019: Jul 19th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – இலங்கி

    Part 020: Aug 02nd 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – நின்படிக்கெல்லாந் தன்படி ஏற்க

    Part 021: Aug 09th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – நின்படிக்கெல்லாந் தன்படி ஏற்க (Contd.)

    Part 022: Aug 16th 2014 EDT – MummaNikkOvai 01st pAsuram – நின்படிக்கெல்லாந் தன்படி ஏற்க அவதரித்தருளி
    Reply 3:

    1. As per Thennacharya Sampradayam, Sri Mahalakshmi is a Jeevatman. As per Desika Sampradayam, she is one with Paramatma. So, according to Desika Sampradayam, she is Vibhu always.

    2. I am not sure about this. Since the great Swami Desika has corroborated the view that Thayar is part of Paramatma, he being Vedantacharya, I think Vedas will not support the theory of Anuthvam for Thayar.

    3. Saguna Brahman means Brahman with attributes or auspicious qualities. Nirguna Brahman means one without any qualities (which is the concept of Advaita). According to Vaishnavas, Brahman is Saguna. Yes, Mahalakshmi is Saguna Brahman (Sriman Narayana is the Para Brahman and Thayar is part of him) since she has innumerable auspicious qualities like Daya, Vaatsalyam, Pavithrathaa etc.

    4. She can grant Moksha independently (as per Desika Sampradayam); but since Sriman Narayana has taken up this task of granting Moksha, she does not interfere with that; she recommends us to the Lord for granting Moksham (Purushakaara Bhoothai). She prefers to be an obedient wife in this case, without exercising her powers, inspite of her having the capacity to grant Moksha.

    5. Since I am a layman as far as Vedas are concerned, I leave it to the learned scholars.

    The above information is what I have gained by reading various books. I have not had any Kalakshepams from Acharyas. If there is anything wrong, I may be pardoned and corrected.

    Since the above answers were not conclusive, except for reply #2 which suggests I have go through few links listening to a discourse on mother Mahalakshmi. I will go through the few links provided and try to see if I gain a solid understanding on our questions.

    Thanks,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

    Namaste,

    I went through audio-CDs 20 and 21 (from the list above). Based on that according to Desika Sampradaya (Vadakalai sect of SriVaishnavam), Sri Mahalashmi Thaayaar is the SAME as Sriman Narayana in many of the aspects - i) in being vibhU (all pervading), ii) in being the 'upAyA' and the 'upEyA' - the object of attainment and the means of attainment iii) in being a 'Bhagavathi' - that is, having all the meritorious disposition termed as 'bhagA' and being iv) sarva-sEshi - the lord (or queen) of the entire universe. The good swami who does the upanyasa in the audio-cd's quotes many verses from Sri Rahasya Traya Saaram for his justification. He says that like 'MitraVaruna' and 'AgnaVishnu', perumal (Sriman Narayana) and thaayaar (mother Mahalakshmi) are double-gods who are and act together, and thus even in homas, they accept the offerings together. They are both 'sarva-sEshi' (lords of the Universe) and 'Eka-tatvam' (belong to the same category - they are 'one').

    I would like to say that for further knowledge about the role played by mother Sridevi and to know further about her auspiciousness and supremacy, one can refer other Vaishnava works such as listed below:

    1. Swamy ALavandhAr (ChathusslOki)
    2. KurEsar (Sri Sthavam)
    3. Sri Sooktam (khila Rk from Vedam)
    4. Sri Sthuthi (VishNu PurANam)
    5. SaraNAgathi Gadhyam passages of EmperumAnAr
    6. Sri LakshmI ashtotthara sthOthram
    7. Sri Lakshmi Sahasra NaamaSthOthram
    8. Sri Sthuthi of Swamy Desikan
    9. Sri DevanAr ViLAgam PadmanAbhAcchArSwamy's monograph (Ph.D Thesis) on ParAsara Bhattar,
    10. AzhwAr's aruLiccheyalkaLs
    11. Lakshmi Tanthram
    12.Srimath Prakrutham Azhagiya Singar's KaalakshEpams on our ThAyAr's unique glories.

    Kindly note the above list is from the document on 'Guna Ratna Kosam' available at http://www.scribd.com/doc/99806/Guna-Ratna-Kosam.

    Thanks.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Namaste,

    I went through audio-CDs 20 and 21 (from the list above). Based on that according to Desika Sampradaya (Vadakalai sect of SriVaishnavam), Sri Mahalashmi Thaayaar is the SAME as Sriman Narayana in many of the aspects - i) in being vibhU (all pervading), ii) in being the 'upAyA' and the 'upEyA' - the object of attainment and the means of attainment iii) in being a 'Bhagavathi' - that is, having all the meritorious disposition termed as 'bhagA' and being iv) sarva-sEshi - the lord (or queen) of the entire universe. The good swami who does the upanyasa in the audio-cd's quotes many verses from Sri Rahasya Traya Saaram for his justification. He says that like 'MitraVaruna' and 'AgnaVishnu', perumal (Sriman Narayana) and thaayaar (mother Mahalakshmi) are double-gods who are and act together, and thus even in homas, they accept the offerings together. They are both 'sarva-sEshi' (lords of the Universe) and 'Eka-tatvam' (belong to the same category - they are 'one').

    I would like to say that for further knowledge about the role played by mother Sridevi and to know further about her auspiciousness and supremacy, one can refer other Vaishnava works such as listed below:

    1. Swamy ALavandhAr (ChathusslOki)
    2. KurEsar (Sri Sthavam)
    3. Sri Sooktam (khila Rk from Vedam)
    4. Sri Sthuthi (VishNu PurANam)
    5. SaraNAgathi Gadhyam passages of EmperumAnAr
    6. Sri LakshmI ashtotthara sthOthram
    7. Sri Lakshmi Sahasra NaamaSthOthram
    8. Sri Sthuthi of Swamy Desikan
    9. Sri DevanAr ViLAgam PadmanAbhAcchArSwamy's monograph (Ph.D Thesis) on ParAsara Bhattar,
    10. AzhwAr's aruLiccheyalkaLs
    11. Lakshmi Tanthram
    12.Srimath Prakrutham Azhagiya Singar's KaalakshEpams on our ThAyAr's unique glories.

    Kindly note the above list is from the document on 'Guna Ratna Kosam' available at http://www.scribd.com/doc/99806/Guna-Ratna-Kosam.

    Thanks.
    Namaste Viraja ji,

    Thank you very much for this.

    praṇām
    śrīmate nārāyaṇāya namaḥ

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    Re: puruṣakāra (interceder) in the vaḍakalai sect of the śrī vaiṣṇavas

    Dear Viraja Ji!

    Sri is never been Jivatma and she is always above the class of NithyaSooris! You were right in few messages above stating that, due to Sriman Narayana, Her stature gets expanded and they are since inseparable, finding anything less in Sri is also ignorance. ( Since they are inseparable, there is nothing that only one lacks - so Thayaar has everything He has and She lacks nothing as She is inseparable from Him).

    Every Jiva and NithyaSooris are Sthrees in the context of Sriman Narayana as the ParamaPurusha! In that context, Sri becomes the channel through which Jivas can even approach Sriman Narayana! This ultimate Prema Ruchi ( The mellow of loving relationship and etiquette) is very much detailed in Sri Nimbarka and Sri Gaudiya traidtions! So, just because Jivas are also in Stree Bhava, that logic alone does not make Sri another jiva.

    If Jiva Kshara, Sri is Akshara and Sriman Narayana is above both of these categories! ( Though not very clearly established in Sri Vaishnavaism to my so far exposure)

    Hare Krshna!
    Last edited by grames; 26 August 2014 at 08:35 AM.

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