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Thread: Is Vamachara marga Dharmic ?

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    Is Vamachara marga Dharmic ?

    The following link has some information on Vamachara Marga from Advaitic view point.

    http://www.ambaa.org/archives/frm03286.html

    Shankaracharya has clearly condemned this unVedic pratice according to couple of Shankara Vijayas.

    http://www.geocities.com/advaitavedant/shankarabio.htm

    This is a presentation of his life based on Anandagiri's Shankara Vijaya, Maadhaveeya Shankara Vijaya and works by Swami Apoorvananda.

    At Tulaja Bhavani, there lived many Shakta followers of Vamachara. Many of them indulged in practices like Narabali and Yoni Puja. These so called Shaktas indulged in the name of religion, in meat, wine and women and had thus considerably sullied the moral life of society. As a result of their diabolical rituals, people were misled to indulge in many evil practices. The Acharya knew this and therefore decided upon reforming these Vamachara tantrics.
    One day during his stay at Tulaja Bhavani, some Vamacharis came to the Acharya and began to abuse him as a hypocritical ascetic. Explaining their own view they said, " The primal source of the world is Shakti and it is her that we worship. There is no importance of your Advaita knowledge whatsoever. You too should follow this creed. This will bring you supreme good".
    The Acharya listened to their arguments patiently. Then he said, " There can be no deliverance through senseless rituals by which you claim to please Shakti. In the scriptures it is written that one should never take to meat and wine. By taking meat and wine, you have lowered yourselves. You have stayed away from the region of the Brahman. Do not call yourselves Shaktas any more. Try for deliverance from sins through atonement and by surrendering yourselves to the supreme Brahman".
    The followers of Vamachara were filled with self-remorse at these words of the Acharya, full of substance and quite in accordance with the scriptures. The Acharya initiated them into Samayachara worship of the great Goddess and showed them the proper way to attain self- realization. His invaluable works like Prapanchasara Tantra, Tantravatarakrama and the Saundaryalahari acted as guides to the path of liberation by way of worship of the supreme Parashakti , at the same time following the rules laid down in the Vedas.
    Here is what Vivekananda says about vamachara marga.

    http://www.vivekananda.btinternet.co.uk/veda11.htm

    Vol.3: The Vedanta in All Its Phases, pp.340-341.

    When I see how much the Vamachara [Tantra] has entered our [Bengali] society, I find it a most disgraceful place, with all of its boast of culture. These Vamachara sects are honeycombing our society in Bengal. Those who come out in the daytime and preach most loudly about achara, it is they who carry on the horrible debauchery at night and are backed by the most dreadful books. They are ordered by the books to do these things. You who are of Bengal know of it. The Bengal Shastras are the Vamachara Tantras. They are published by the cart-load, and you poison the minds of your children with them instead of teaching them our Shrutis. Fathers of Calcutta, do you not feel ashamed that such horrible stuff as these Vamachara Tantras, with translations too, should be put into the hands of your boys and girls, and their minds poisoned, and that they should be brought up with the idea that these are the Shastras of the Hindus? If you are ashamed, take them away from your children and let them read the true Shastras - the Vedas, the Gita and the Upanishads.

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    This is my response. For practitioner it will be heaven to do such things but for abstainers it is not so.

    As it is said, Wolf might attach a sheep flock. When shepherd drives of the wolf, wolf complains that shepherd blocks natural resources for its survivial offered by lord, whereas sheep praises for shepherd for upholding its survival right offered by lord.

    Jai Shree Krishna.

    If I am shepherd, I will protect what I am supposed to and I will protect my cult from Vamachara

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ramkish42

    This is my response. For practitioner it will be heaven to do such things but for abstainers it is not so.

    As it is said, Wolf might attach a sheep flock. When shepherd drives of the wolf, wolf complains that shepherd blocks natural resources for its survivial offered by lord, whereas sheep praises for shepherd for upholding its survival right offered by lord.

    Jai Shree Krishna.

    If I am shepherd, I will protect what I am supposed to and I will protect my cult from Vamachara
    This does not seem to be very convincing. Based on this logic every adharmic activity can be made to look dhramic relative to somebody or some circumstance.

    Dharma is well defined in Vedas. Vedas say clearly(in one of the Upanishads) that none can obtain Moskha and gain Brahma Jnana without knowing Vedas. All Shastras talk about control of senses, avoiding meat and alcohol, and control of sexual urges. Hence VAmAchArA marga cannot be right at the same time when Vedas reccommend just the opposite teachings.

    What is right and wrong cannot be relative.

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    Namaste,

    Seemingly U want to bring this topic again and try to prove Ur opinion on sexual side of Tantrism and Hinduism in general.
    Again, i will show it's invalidity. (No one tries to make U a Vamachari or Kaula or convince U to accept Tantric doctrine. What is the problem in fact? Every one is free to choose his path. If U personally aren't fond of Tantrism, it is not a reason to impose Ur views on others and divert the facts.)
    I am totally aware of that i won't make U agree with me. Actually i do not try to convince U since i see it as useless thing. But i have to reply to protect the Truth - for the sake of those who may read Ur posts and get deluded about Tantric path. So, again, i do not suggest U to agree or change Ur personal views - it is totally up to Ur wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkannan1
    The following link has some information on Vamachara Marga from Advaitic view point.
    It is not advaitic, it is Harsha's. His personal opinion is not a standard of truth. He has been noted in yahoo groups for baseless condemnation of Vama-marga. Harsha has no initiation into high levels of Shrividya-sadhana and i am not sure if he at all belongs to any authentic tradition.
    The view of Shri Amritanandanatha of Devipuram is much more trustable. And he clearly says Vamachara was and is an esoteric, sublime part of Shrividya tradition. Which is in full accordance with Agamas and other sacred texts of Shrividya.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkannan1
    Shankaracharya has clearly condemned this unVedic pratice according to couple of Shankara Vijayas.
    First of all, this kind of writings (half-mythical stories about lives of some saints) are not of primary importance to any tradition. Secondly, they are valid only for Shankara's tradition - and in no way have to be accepted as general Hindu authority, let alone Tantric one.
    Leaving aside the matter of historical accuracy (which is questionable) of such stories, in any case they cannot stand as a proof of adharmic nature of Vama-marga.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkannan1
    Here is what Vivekananda says about vamachara marga.
    Same thing, this is a personal opinion which is to be followed by his disciples only (and not all Hindus). With respect to Swami Vivekananda, his statements are incorrect in general (maybe it was said in some context and needed at that particular moment). Actually his own Guru, Sri Ramakrishna, did follow Vamachara for certain time (until he became divya-sadhaka). Many well known saints of Bengal were Kaulas and Vamacharis (Shri Vamakshepa and Tarakshepa are just two examples).

    I can understand that some practices of Vama-marga are in contradiction with Smriti-shastras. However, Tantras (as Agamas in general) are traditionally held to be a part of Shruti (dealing with vishesha-jnana as opposed to samanya-jnana in Vedas) and their authority is higher than that of any Smriti (for the followers of Tantric path). And Tantras do prescribe Vamachara as a necessary level of Shakta-upasana, which is more advanced than conventional ritualistic or yogic sadhana.
    To be clear, one doesn't have to follow niyamas of Tantras unless he is a Tantrika (moreover, he has no right for Vama-sadhanas without special diksha and upadesha).

    Sexual rituals were present already in ancient Vedic cult, and they aren't prohibited by Smriti (if varnshrama-dharma is not violated).
    They are present in Shaiva- and Bhairava-agamas, as well as in Shakta- (Kaula-)agamas. Even in Vaishnava tradition there is a place for sexual rituals - both in South Indian tradition of Shri-sampradaya and traditions of North. I do not mean to say that all Shaivas or Vaishnavas followed Vamachara (which is of course not the case), but some of them did - and their practice is fully dharmic and based of their Agamas.

    Vamachara is prescribed in almost all scriptures of Shakta tradition. This fact is beyond any doubt. If needed i can easily provide any numbers of quotes. Hope it is not necessary, i simply have no time for reproducing here those text which are available in India. U may check some Tantras in Muktabodha Online Library, that will be enough. I can show U needed places as well.

    Please, do not divert the facts. Vamachara is a valid path in Hinduism, and necessary part of Tantrism. But it is not for everyone, and primarily is meant for grihasthas with intention to Moksha or knowledge of God.
    Also, Kaula-tantra is impossible without Love (bhakti), which is to be taken into account.

    I really do not want to enter a huge disputation, since the issue is transparent. Hope U will have enough respect to other ways in Hindu-dharma which are different from Ur own.

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    To conclude,

    There cannot be any objection for Vama-sadhana for grihasthis who got proper initiation into Kaula tradition. And Scriptures accept this as a path to Brahma-jnana (Shiva-vyapti in Tantric terms).

    Let us agree on this and finish unnecessary clashes.

    Best regards,
    Arjunananda

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    To conclude,

    There cannot be any objection for Vama-sadhana for grihasthis who got proper initiation into Kaula tradition. And Scriptures accept this as a path to Brahma-jnana (Shiva-vyapti in Tantric terms).

    Let us agree on this and finish unnecessary clashes.

    Best regards,
    Arjunananda
    Which scripture ? Please quote relevant scriptural quotes to support your contention.

    As far as grihastas, they still have to follow Vedic path and sense control. Definitely sex is not part of any authentic Yoga process acceptable to Vedas.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    Namaste,

    Seemingly U want to bring this topic again and try to prove Ur opinion on sexual side of Tantrism and Hinduism in general.
    Again, i will show it's invalidity. (No one tries to make U a Vamachari or Kaula or convince U to accept Tantric doctrine. What is the problem in fact? Every one is free to choose his path. If U personally aren't fond of Tantrism, it is not a reason to impose Ur views on others and divert the facts.)
    I am totally aware of that i won't make U agree with me. Actually i do not try to convince U since i see it as useless thing. But i have to reply to protect the Truth - for the sake of those who may read Ur posts and get deluded about Tantric path. So, again, i do not suggest U to agree or change Ur personal views - it is totally up to Ur wish.
    It is not about personal opinions but trying to see facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    First of all, this kind of writings (half-mythical stories about lives of some saints) are not of primary importance to any tradition. Secondly, they are valid only for Shankara's tradition - and in no way have to be accepted as general Hindu authority, let alone Tantric one.
    Leaving aside the matter of historical accuracy (which is questionable) of such stories, in any case they cannot stand as a proof of adharmic nature of Vama-marga.
    The Shankara Vijayas are accepted as authentic by the Advaita tradition. Hence Shankara's opinions on vAmAchArA is explicit. As for proving whether vAmAchArA is adharmic or not, Shankara's words provide additional support for my claim. It is not a independent evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    Same thing, this is a personal opinion which is to be followed by his disciples only (and not all Hindus). With respect to Swami Vivekananda, his statements are incorrect in general (maybe it was said in some context and needed at that particular moment). Actually his own Guru, Sri Ramakrishna, did follow Vamachara for certain time (until he became divya-sadhaka). Many well known saints of Bengal were Kaulas and Vamacharis (Shri Vamakshepa and Tarakshepa are just two examples).
    Ramakrishna has told that vAmAchArA is for Bhangis. Again the words of Vivekanada is to provide additional support to my statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    I can understand that some practices of Vama-marga are in contradiction with Smriti-shastras. However, Tantras (as Agamas in general) are traditionally held to be a part of Shruti (dealing with vishesha-jnana as opposed to samanya-jnana in Vedas) and their authority is higher than that of any Smriti (for the followers of Tantric path).
    Only for tantrics, but need not be true. Besides nowhere in Sruti it is told "sex" is a way to reach Bhagavaan. Infact many Srutis and Smritis make it clear that lust and desire(includes sex) takes one away from Brahma Saukya.

    In addition Brihadaranyaka Upanishad is very clear that sex is merely a tool for procreation and hence is explained as a ritual here in this upanishad. This Upanishad never says that "sex" as a way to atttain Brahma Saukya.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    And Tantras do prescribe Vamachara as a necessary level of Shakta-upasana, which is more advanced than conventional ritualistic or yogic sadhana.
    To be clear, one doesn't have to follow niyamas of Tantras unless he is a Tantrika (moreover, he has no right for Vama-sadhanas without special diksha and upadesha).
    The question is whether these tantric agamas are Dharmic or falsehood. There is every evidence for tantric agamas(left ones) going against Vedas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    Sexual rituals were present already in ancient Vedic cult,
    Where ? Provide quotes. Otherwise it is mere statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    and they aren't prohibited by Smriti (if varnshrama-dharma is not violated).
    They are present in Shaiva- and Bhairava-agamas, as well as in Shakta- (Kaula-)agamas.
    Only these agamas you mentioned above allow, all of which contyradict sruti in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    Even in Vaishnava tradition there is a place for sexual rituals - both in South Indian tradition of Shri-sampradaya and traditions of North.
    This is absolute nonsense. Merely stating more lies proves nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    I do not mean to say that all Shaivas or Vaishnavas followed Vamachara (which is of course not the case), but some of them did - and their practice is fully dharmic and based of their Agamas.
    Which Vaishnava agama has this. Provide references, verses and your sources. Mere faulty, (intentionally/unintentionally) misleading statements will not help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna
    Vamachara is prescribed in almost all scriptures of Shakta tradition. This fact is beyond any doubt. If needed i can easily provide any numbers of quotes. Hope it is not necessary, i simply have no time for reproducing here those text which are available in India. U may check some Tantras in Muktabodha Online Library, that will be enough. I can show U needed places as well.

    Please, do not divert the facts. Vamachara is a valid path in Hinduism, and necessary part of Tantrism. But it is not for everyone, and primarily is meant for grihasthas with intention to Moksha or knowledge of God.
    Also, Kaula-tantra is impossible without Love (bhakti), which is to be taken into account.

    I really do not want to enter a huge disputation, since the issue is transparent. Hope U will have enough respect to other ways in Hindu-dharma which are different from Ur own.
    The whole point is that this kaula tradition is anti-Vedic and adhrmic in nature. To remove doubt of bigotry of my side or the doubt that this is my faulty opinion, I quoted some of the opinions of great acharyas too.

    From Vedas and smritis it is clear that vAmAchArA is an adharmic and anti-vedic tradition. To show this fact is my intention of this post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkannan1
    This does not seem to be very convincing. Based on this logic every adharmic activity can be made to look dhramic relative to somebody or some circumstance.

    Dharma is well defined in Vedas. Vedas say clearly(in one of the Upanishads) that none can obtain Moskha and gain Brahma Jnana without knowing Vedas. All Shastras talk about control of senses, avoiding meat and alcohol, and control of sexual urges. Hence VAmAchArA marga cannot be right at the same time when Vedas reccommend just the opposite teachings.

    What is right and wrong cannot be relative.
    Dear Shri Kannan

    Indeed Yes.

    This analogy looks as if what you had mentioned. However, you fail to understand the rights and duties assigned to every one.

    Sanaatana is diversified group of philosophies where every one is accomodated, hence what is adharmic to one may be dharmic to another. Let me point out

    For (Veer Shaiva my earlier posting is wrong, actually it is Kapaali) Kapaali, Yagnopavitam is made of long hair, esp of female, for they are supposed to live in Burial Ground. Hair in food is OK for Sowriraja Perumal as promised by the lord himself. But for you and me, Hair found in food or elsewhere in house spoils the sanctity.

    Let us please understand Dharma changes for each and every one

    You had been specifically taught to take Charanagati, and you go for it. This does not mean it is the only Dharma. There are other 32 similar dharma to reach god's abode.

    For Vamachara, results as deemed by Saaktha is not Vaikunta as you understand. Eternity offered by Saaktha is different by what is offered in Vaishnav or Shaiva.

    To add, Yoni puja, (of course not in literal terms and practise as said and done by Saaktha) is incorporated also in Saama Veda and it is mandatory during marriage ceremonies. Now a days, our practise to this much disguised. REquest you to consult a local preist on this (I trust you yourself might know this well)

    As I understand there is good and bad. There is only Good and Pleasant.

    Sreyas or Preyas

    This is what you have to choose from.

    Sreyascha preyascha manushyamethatsou samparitya vivinakthi deerah
    Sreyosi deeropi preyaso vrunite preyomandhe yogakshemaan vrunite

    Just my humber Opinion

    tanmaamaavet; tadvaktaaramaavet; aavetmaam; aavetvaktaaram
    Last edited by ramkish42; 22 April 2006 at 07:18 AM.

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