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Thread: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

  1. #41

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Darshansingh writes:
    "Also you will see many posts in this forum who say that guru gobind singh was bhagat of Chandi; and some using the words that sikh gurus were self-styled godmen and such. These people are either uneducated, or silly, or mischievous. I just consider them uneducated. Some sikhs may see them as mischievous which causes further rift."
    Actually, it is you who are uneducated, since you aren't even aware of the historical origins of such teachings. Regardless of whether you accept them or not, this is still a validly held part of purataan sanatan Sikh heritage.

    See below is a picture which appears on Jvala Singh's blogspot. Now whether you can accept it or not, whether the majority of the Singh Sabha Tat Khalsa reformed Sikh Panth can accept it or not, you see Devi as being quite central to an earlier time period of Sikh history (read: before the British and Macauliffe's divisions and lies.)



    Above is a photograph of a beautiful handwritten Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib manuscript which portrays Guru Nanak Dev Ji on the left side, Guru Gobind Singh Ji on the right side and in the middle the Devi, this particular form of the Devi is Sarswati. This manuscript is estimated to be written in the early to mid 1800s. http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/
    Bansavalinama written in 1769 CE by Kesar Singh Chibber also mentions the celebrating of Dusshera. Kesar Singh Ji writes:

    ਦੁਸਹਰੇ ਦੇ ਦਿਨ ਪੂਜਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਕਰਨ । ਚੰਡੀਪਾਠ ਕੀਤਾ ਰਸਨਾ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ।
    On the days of Dusshera, worship your weapons. From your mouths you should recite the ballads of Chandi [Chandi Chritars and Chandi Di Vaar].

    ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ, ਪੁਸ਼ਪ, ਬਹੁਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੁਗੰਧਿ । ਕੇਸਰ, ਚੰਦਨ, ਚਉਰ ਝੁਲੰਤ ।੩੯੦।
    [Worship your weapons by using] lots of Incense, Gee-lamps, flowers and nice fragrances. [Use] Saffron, Sandalwood and a Wisk to wave [above your weapons].
    - Bansavalinama pg. 161 ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ ਪਨਾ ੧੬੧
    http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/

    Below is a passage from the start of Krishnavatar [the section which describes the life story of Krishna], from Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. For more information on the role of Devi in Sikh Dharam please view other articles on the blog such as, Ugardanthi Explanation, Khalsa Dharam Shaastar, and Bhagauti Astotar Katha.


    ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥
    Now begins the description in praise of the goddess

    ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥
    SWAYYA

    ਹੋਇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਹਮ ਪੈ ਤੁ ਸਭੈ ਸਗਨੰਗੁਨ ਹੀ ਧਰਿਹੋਂ ॥
    On receiving Thy Grace, I shall assume all the virtues;

    ਜੀਅ ਧਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਤਬੈ ਬਰ ਬੁੱਧਿ ਮਹਾਂ ਅਗਨੰਗੁਨ ਕੋ ਹਰਿਹੌਂ ॥
    I shall destroy all the vices, ruminating on Thy attributes in my mind;

    ਬਿਨੁ ਚੰਡ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਨਹੀ ਅੱਛਰ ਹਉ ਕਰਿ ਹੌਂ ॥
    O Chandi! I cannot utter a syllable from my mouth without Thy Grace;

    ਤੁਮਰੋ ਕਰ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਿਧੋ ਤੁਲਹਾ ਜਿਮ ਬਾਕ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰ ਬਿਖੈ ਤਰਿਹੌਂ ॥੫॥
    I can ferry across the ocean of Poesy, on only the boat of Thy Name.5.

    ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
    DOHRA

    ਰੇ ਮਨ ਭਜ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਰਦਾ ਅਨਗਨ ਗੁਨ ਹੈ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
    O mind! Remember the goddess Sharda of innumerable qualities;

    ਰਚੌ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਇਹ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਜਉ ਵੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਾਹਿ ॥੬॥
    And if she be kind, I may compose this Granth (based on) Bhagavata.6.

    ਕਬਿਤੁ ॥
    KABIT

    ਸੰਕਟ ਹਰਨ ਸਭ ਸਿੱਧਕੀ ਕਰਨ ਚੰਡ ਤਾਰਨ ਤਰਨ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਲੋਚਨ ਬਿਸਾਲ ਹੈ ॥
    The large-eyed Chandika is the remover of all sufferings, the donor of powers and support of the helpless in ferrying across the fearful ocean of the world;

    ਆਦਿ ਜਾਕੈ ਆਹਮ ਹੈ ਅੰਤ ਕੋ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਉਬਾਰਨ ਕਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲ ਹੈ ॥
    It is difficult to know her beginning and end, she emancipates and sustains him, who takes refuge in her,

    ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਭੁਖ ਜਾਰਨ ਸੋ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਨ ਛਡਾਏ ਜਮਜਾਲ ਹੈ॥
    She destroys the demons, finishes various types of desires and saves from the noose of death;

    ਦੇਵੀ ਬਰ ਲਾਇਕ ਸਬੁੱਧਿਹੂ ਕੀ ਦਾਇਕ ਸੁ ਦੇਹ ਬਰ ਪਾਇਕ ਬਨਾਵੈ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਹਾਲ ਹੈ ॥੭॥
    The same goddess is capable of bestowing the boon and good intellect; by her Grace this Granth can be composed.7.

    ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥
    SWAYYA

    ਅੱਦ੍ਰ ਸੁਤਾ ਹੂੰ ਕੀ ਜੋ ਤਨਯਾ ਮਹਿਖਾਸੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਰਤਾ ਫੁਨਿ ਜੋਊ ॥
    She, who is the daughter of the mountain and the destroyer of Mahishasura;

    ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਕੋ ਰਾਜਹਿ ਕੀ ਦਿਵਯਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਬਧ ਸੁੰਭ ਨਿਸੁੰਭਹਿ ਦੋਊ ॥
    She, who is the bestower of the kingdom of Indra, the King of Demi-Gods, by killing Sumbh and Nisumbh;

    ਜੋ ਜਪ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਸੇਵ ਕਰੈ ਬਰ ਕੋ ਸੁ ਲਹੈ ਮਨ ਇੱਛਤਾ ਸੋਊ ॥
    He, who remembers and serves her, he receives the reward to his heart`s desire,

    ਲੋਕ ਬਿਖੈ ਉਹ ਕੀ ਸਮ ਤੁੱਲ ਗਰੀਬ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਨ ਦੂਸਰ ਕੋਊ ॥੮॥
    And in the whole world, none other is the supporter of the poor like her.8

    ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਸਮਾਪਤਮ ॥
    End of the praise of the goddess,

    http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/
    First Stanza of Sarbloh Granth Translation


    One (advait - non-dual) Lord who is the light of all creation

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ ॥
    Victory to Sri Vahiguru

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥
    May Bhavani be helpful

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮਾਯਾ ਲਛਮੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥
    May Maya Laxmi be helpful

    ਉਸਤਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮਾਯਾ ਲਛਮੀ ਜੀ ਕੀ ॥
    The Praise of Sri Maya Laxmi

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਿਵਾਕਯ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦ ॥
    From the blessed mouth of the Tenth King

    ਦੋਹਿਰਾ ॥ ਛਾਯਾ ਰੂਪੀ ਹੇਇ ਕੈ, ਬਿਚਰਤ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥
    Taking the form of Maya (the great illusion, duality), Gopal (the preserver of Life) wanders within it (the creation)

    ਆਪਹਿ ਲਛਮੀ ਬਪੁ ਧਰੇ, ਜੀਉ ਜੰਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲ ॥੧॥
    For the protection of beings, He took the form of Sri Laxmi

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮਾਯਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਕਰੋ ਉਚਾਰ ॥
    Recite, “Sri Maya”, from your mouth

    ਦਰਿਦ੍ਰ ਸਾਗਰ ਤੇ ਲੇਹੁ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    She protects the weak from the (dreadful) ocean

    ਦੋਹਿਰਾ ॥ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਈਸੁਰੀ, ਮਾਯਾ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮ ॥
    The Primordial Bhavani (Paida karn vali shakti*) the Creator, whose name is Maya

    ਇਨ ਬਿਨ ਸਰੈ ਨ ਏਕ ਛਿਨ, ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਤ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥੨॥
    Nothing can be accomplished without Her protection not even for a moment.

    ਸੁਖਦਾਇਕ ਮੰਗਲਕਰਨ, ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲੇ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ॥
    The giver of happiness, giver of liberation, Her very nature is to take care of Her creation

    ਸੁਬੁਧਿਦੈਨ ਜੈ ਜੈ ਕਰਨਿ, ਮਾਯਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਜਗਮਾਤਿ ॥੩॥
    Hail Hail to the One who gives awareness of the Self (aatma), Maya (Laxmi), the mother of the World


    Notes according to the Budha Dal Steek on Sarbloh Granth:
    Bhavani (the fericous form of Parbati, Shivji's consort, also known as Durga, Bhagauti) here is noted as "Paida karan vali shakti", meaning, that She is the Creative (that which gives birth) Energy of the Universe.

    Maya Laxmi (Vishnu's consort) is noted as "Paalnaa karan vali Shakti", meaning She is the Nourishing/protecting Energy of the Universe.

    The Steek talks about how these Devi's represent Guna's (qualities) of Vahiguru.

    http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/200...1_archive.html
    See, rather than the Sanatan view being "uneducated," all that has transpired over the past 100 years of Singh Sabha reform is the older source material has been suppressed, marginalized, denied, invalidated or even, as in case of Gurbilas, banned outright.

    What has Singh Sabha to fear? Oh of course, as the principle purpose of their coming into existence being to promote an independent Sikh identity separate from Hindu, the former sanatan glory of Hindu-Sikhism must be kept from public view. And so, it isn't I who am uneducated in this matter...but YOU!

  2. #42

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    "In 1905 the British Raj had installed a caretaker of the central Harimandir Gurdwara after the reform Singh Sabha had usurped power from the original Sanatan Singh Sabha. This "jathedar" held a position given to him by the British. It did not ever before exist in Sikh history."

    Darsahansingh writes:
    "Incorrect. Baba Budda was first jathedar of Harmander Sahib."
    --------------------------------
    According to a source, when Guru Hargobind Sahib remained in Gwalior Fort prison, he had asked Baba Buddha to perform the services of Darbar Sahib (HARIMANDAR SAHIB) and Bhai Gurdas to take care of Akal Takht Sahib. It was not the appointment of Bhai Gurdas as the Jathedar of Akal Takht Sahib. It is ignorance to say that Bhai Gurdas was the Jathedar or the Custodian of Akal Takht Sahib. He was just the caretaker.

    Guru Hargobind Sahib left Amritsar in 1635. Between 1635 and 1696 (until the death of Harji), Amritsar was under the control of the descendants of Pirthi Chand (elder brother of Guru Arjan Sahib).

    In April 1698, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib appointed Bhai Mani Singh as Granthi of Darbar Sahib and Akal Takht Sahib. On December 30, 1711, Bahadur Shah, the Mogul emperor, "assigned" the Jagir of Chakk Ram Das (Amritsar) to Ajit Singh Palit (He had been adopted by Mata Sunder Kaur. Later, she discarded him). Bahadur Shah wanted to use Ajit Singh Palit against Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, the Sikh General. Ajit Singh returned to Delhi after the death of Bahadur Shah (February 27, 1712).

    After this Baba Kahan Singh of the so-called Tat Khalsa, who looked after Akal Takht Sahib and Mahant Amar Singh of the so-called Bandai Khalsa, who had the control of Jhanda Bunga.

    Bhai Mani Singh is not referred as so-called Jathedar in any Sikh work. Bhai Ratan Singh Bhangu calls him "Pujaran sion vado pujari" (chief priest among the priests)."
    http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/akal.html
    You have inherited a very creative history which, as per Tat Khalsa reforms, fills the gaps very nicely but inaccurately. The Jathedars were also known as Misldars and hence the position was one of military commander. The caretakers of the shrines including Harimandir Sahib were "pujaris" of the Guru Sahibaan blood relatives. There is an entire lineage which the Singh Sabhas have completely overlooked and derailed in their invention of new history.

    And notice these Mahants are all wearing Seli Topi. The same Seli Topi worn by the first 5 dedhari forms of Guru Sahibaan, who did NOT wear pagri. Notice they are all wearing tilak, which according to Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, was also placed on Guru Sahibaan. Notice they are all wearing mala which is same in appearance to the mala belonging to Guru Nanak Dev Ji kept in Sodhi family Guru Harsahai to this day. So don't think the Mahants appearance is strange, because the original dedhari forms of Guru would not recognize the images depicting them today, but appeared very much as these pictures of the original Mahants and pujaris of Harimandir Sahib Ji.


    THE FIRST SHRI MAHANT AUD DAS JI
    Shri Aud Das Ji is considered the first Shri Mahant of the Darbar Sahib. He served from 1687 to 1741. He did not get any formal education and had come in the service of Guru Maharaj at a very young age. It is also said of him that he was left with Guru Maharaj and Mata Punjab Kaur in his childhood. Some people say that he became the Mahant after the death of Mata Punjab Kaur. He went to Malwa region of the Punjab for preaching religion where he met Har Prasad Ji. The latter got so much impressed by Shri Aud Das Ji that he took Sanyas (adandoned the world) and became his disciple. Though Shri Aud Das Ji remained Mahant for 54 years yet he worked for 32 years under the guidance of Mata Punjab Kaur and after her death carried out the work with the assistance of Shri Har Prasad Ji. Shri Aud Das Ji was a gentle natured saint and utilized most of his time in adoration and worship. He remained a dedicated devotee and Shri Mahant. He preserved the tradition of Guru Maharaj and declared Shri Har Prasad Ji who had become the cardinal worker of the Darbar Sahib during the life time of Mata Punjab Kaur, as the future Shri Mahant.
    http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/mahants.html

    THE SECOND SHRI MAHANT HAR PRASAD JI
    Shri Har Prasad Ji was the Shri Mahant of Darbar Sahib from 1741 to 1766 (25 years). He belonged to Malwa in the Punjab and came to Dehradun due to the magnetism of Shri Mahant Aud Das Ji. He was influenced by both Shri Aud Das Ji and Mata Punjab Kaur. He got an opportunity to work with Mata Punjab Kaur as well as Shri Aud Das Ji. He was a bit literate although he did not have any formal education. The Darbar Sahib had very small income during his tenure. After the death of Aurangzeb, there was a change in the political scenario of the country and due to this change, no emperor extended any help or patronage to the Darbar Sahib thereafter. But the Maharajas of Garhwal continued their help as usual. Shri Har Prasad Ji chose Shri Har Sewak Ji as his successor.
    http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/mahants.html

    THE THIRD SHRI MAHANT HAR SEWAK JI
    Shri Har Sewak Ji was also known as Sewak Das but as a Mahant he was called Har Sewak. He also hailed from Malwa (Punjab) and came to Dehradun with a group of sadhus. He started living in the Darbar Sahib. He was initiated as disciple by Shri Har Prasad Ji. He remained Shri Mahant from 1766 to 1818(52 years). He got close proximity to his Guru and double of his tenure. His period was full of upheavals and difficulties. He was a wise and influential Mahant. During the last leg of his tenure, the decline and the fall of the Mughal empire and domination of the Britishers were changing the attitude of the society. Besides this, insecurity and disorder spread in Doon Valley and Garhwal due to the Gorkha War. The treaty of Singoli after the Gorkha War did bring normalcy but Garhwal was divided into two parts. The income of Darbar Sahib got reduced. The Maharaja of Garhwal, Sudarshan Shah, was now left only as the ruler of Tehri Garhwal. The territory across the river Alaknanda, the Ganga and Chandrabhaga had to be given to the British empire.
    http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/mahants.html

    THE FOURTH SHRI MAHANT SWAROOP DAS JI
    Shri Swaroop Das Ji was enthroned on the Gaddi in 1818 and remained Shri Mahant till 1842. He had been a friend and a colleague of his Guru. He was a resident of Saharanpur and might have come in the service of Darbar Sahib long back during the tenure of Shri Har Sewak Ji. He attended the conference of Udaseen sect in 1787 organised at Allahabad as a representative of the Darbar Sahib. The Udaseen Panchayati Akhara was established the same year in which the famous saint Preetam Das Ji made a notable contribution. He placed an orb made of the sacred ashes brought from the 'Dhun' of Baba Bankhandi, the worship of which became an essential part of the sect. The instance of choosing more than one disciple was put in to practice by shri Swaroop Das Ji. He nominated Shri Preetam Das Ji and Shri Bishab Das Ji as his two disciples but Pritam Das Ji became the fifth mahant.
    http://www.sgrrdarbar.org/mahants.html

  3. #43

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....


    "This Seli Topi was worn by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji, Sri Guru Amar Dass Ji, Sri Guru Ram Dass Ji & Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Presently it is lying at the The Fort, Kartarpur District Jalandhar (Pb.) India" http://babawadbhagsinghtrust.com/relics.htm

    Original handwritten Pothi, original mala, padam and shaligram belonging to Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji. YES, Shaligram kept in Sodhi family, Guru Harsahai.

    Sila, (शिल in Devanagari, śila in IAST refers to a Vaishnava (Hindu) aniconic representation of Vishnu, in the form of a spherical, usually black-coloured stone found in the sacred river Gandaki.[1] [2] They are more often referred to as Shaligram Shilas, with Shila being the shortened version. The word Sila translates simply to 'stone' and Shaligram is a less well-known name of Vishnu. The origin of the name is traced to a remote village in Nepal where Vishnu is known by the name of Shaligraman...
    Although Hinduism is commonly represented by such anthropomorphic religious murtis, aniconism is equally represented with such abstract symbols of God such as the saligrama.[3] Moreover, Hindus have found it easier to focus on anthropmorphic icons, because Lord Krishna said in the Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 12, Verse 5, that it is much more difficult to focus on God as the unmanifested than God with form, due to human beings having the need to perceive via the senses.[4]

    ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਲਾਗਹ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
    bahur bahur this laageh paaee ||1||
    Again and again, he falls at the Lord's Feet.

    ਸਾਲਗਿਰਾਮੁ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਸੇਵਾ ॥
    saalagiraam hamaarai saevaa ||
    Such is the Saalagraam, the stone idol, which I serve;

    ਪੂਜਾ ਅਰਚਾ ਬੰਦਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    poojaa arachaa bandhan dhaevaa ||1|| rehaao ||
    such is my worship, flower-offerings and divine adoration as well.

    ਘੰਟਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਚਹੁ ਕੁੰਟ ॥
    ghanttaa jaa kaa suneeai chahu kuntt ||
    His bell resounds to the four corners of the world.

    ਆਸਨੁ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਸਦਾ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ॥
    aasan jaa kaa sadhaa baikunth ||
    His seat is forever in heaven.

    ਜਾ ਕਾ ਚਵਰੁ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਝੂਲੈ ॥
    jaa kaa chavar sabh oopar jhoolai ||
    His chauri, his fly-brush, waves over all.

    ਤਾ ਕਾ ਧੂਪੁ ਸਦਾ ਪਰਫੁਲੈ ॥੨॥
    thaa kaa dhhoop sadhaa parafulai ||2||
    His incense is ever-fragrant.

    ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸੰਪਟੁ ਹੈ ਰੇ ਜਾ ਕਾ ॥
    ghatt ghatt sanpatt hai rae jaa kaa ||
    He is treasured in each and every heart.

    ਅਭਗ ਸਭਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਹੈ ਸਾਧਾ ॥
    abhag sabhaa sang hai saadhhaa ||
    The Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is His Eternal Court.

    ਆਰਤੀ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦ ॥
    aarathee keerathan sadhaa anandh ||
    His Aartee, his lamp-lit worship service, is the Kirtan of His Praises, which brings lasting bliss.

    ਮਹਿਮਾ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਸਦਾ ਬੇਅੰਤ ॥੩॥
    mehimaa sundhar sadhaa baeanth ||3||
    His Greatness is so beautiful, and ever limitless.

    ਜਿਸਹਿ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਲਹਨਾ ॥
    jisehi paraapath this hee lehanaa ||
    He alone obtains it, who is so pre-ordained;

    ਸੰਤ ਚਰਨ ਓਹੁ ਆਇਓ ਸਰਨਾ ॥
    santh charan ouhu aaeiou saranaa ||
    he takes to the Sanctuary of the Saints' Feet.

    ਹਾਥਿ ਚੜਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਲਗਿਰਾਮੁ ॥
    haathh charriou har saalagiraam ||
    I hold in my hands the Saalagraam of the Lord.

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਦਾਨੁ ॥੪॥੩੯॥੯੦॥
    kahu naanak gur keeno dhaan ||4||39||90||
    Says Nanak, the Guru has given me this Gift.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 393

    Now, if the Shaligram were only symbolic like the incense and aarti as per the interpretations of the Tat Khalsa reform scholars...WHY THEN DOES AN ACTUAL SHALIGRAM DATING FROM GURU NANAK AND PASSED DOWN TO GURU SAHIBAAN FAMILIES STILL EXIST?

    Answer? Because Tat Khalsas invented a new anti-Hindu history ignoring the OBVIOUS Vaishnavi roots and distorting the original Sanskrit understanding.


    Baba Bhumman Shah famous Udasi sant also shown wearing Seli Topi and mala.


    This is a fresco (over 200 yrs old), found in the inner sanctum of Dera Baba Charan Shah Udasin at Bahadurpur in Hoshiarpur, Punjab. It depicts the first Sikh Guru, Guru Nanak Dev, along with his companions - Bhai Mardhana (left) and Bhai Bala (right). Bhai Mardhana, a Muslim Sikh, is seen playing the Rabab. Bhai Bala, a Hindu Sikh is fanning the Guru. http://www.flickr.com/photos/chitrakari/375610347/
    Clearly a red chandan tilak on Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

    ਜਿਤਨੇ ਭਗਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਕਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਕਢਾਇ ॥
    jithanae bhagath har saevakaa mukh athasath theerathh thin thilak kadtaae
    All of the devotees and servants of the Lord have the tilak, the ceremonial mark, applied to their foreheads at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage. ~SGGS Ji ang 733
    --------------------------------

    ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
    raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
    The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
    ~SGGS Ji ang 923


  4. #44

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Clearly a red chandan tilak on Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

    Sorry, unable to edit. I hit post before proofreading. Meant to say chandan and kumkum tilak, thanks. (from puja obviously)

  5. #45

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Darshansingh writes:
    "thirdly, I can't understand that what you say about "removing the statues". was it right or wrong?"
    Well per the Singh Sabha reform it was wrong, as they condemned nearly everything from purataan Gursikhi heritage and invented a new, Westernized, monotheistic, blatantly ignorant of Sanskrit version.

    I say it was wrong because it CHANGED, as in ALTERED what had been Sikh heritage.
    Sikhs who worked on this reform movement were not politicians; they were very learned sikhs - who have written treatises on guru granth sahib.
    According to the mainstream Tat Khalsa opinion. But not according to the sanatan Sikh opinion. They were very learned in suppressing and then denying the sanatan history and in ignoring the obvious underlying Sanskrit and Braj Bhasha terminology.

    Fourly - pardon me - I don't understand the meaning of Sanatan Dharma. And why go in terminology.
    Well, I'll give you a perfect example...

    Sikhism is a faith which worships one formless god. (From first lines of guru granth sahib). So there is no place for any images or statues in sikh gurudwara. And those statues were respectfully removed; I believe durgiana temple in amristsar holds those statues now.

    ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
    ikoankaar sathnaam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibhan gurprasaadh||
    One Universal Creator God The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self- Existent. By Guru's Grace~
    ~SGGS Ji ang 1


    Now let's take a close look at these concepts in Gurbani. Oh yes, there was this little problematic issue right here....
    "Sikhism is a faith which worships one formless god."

    Not quite. You cannot worship something without form. Impossible. There is no NAAM you can call it. No conception you could imagine of it. No relationship whatsoever to human mentality. It is by definition BEYOND HUMAN WORSHIP. What you worship is that aspect of the Supreme Totality which is nirguna that MANIFESTS in perceivable form and becomes sarguna/saguna.

    ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥
    nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||
    He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 250
    --------------------

    ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਤੇ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਰੰ ॥
    niragun thae saragun dhrisattaaran ||
    From formless, He appeared as form.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 250
    --------------------

    Now, it cannot be correctly said that the Lord is formless ONLY, that the Supreme Absolute is nirguna ONLY, since that would contradict the Gurbani which describes the Supreme as BOTH Nirguna and Sarguna. HENCE the Absolute Lord DOES take on form.

    And if this were not the case...how could there be a Satguru, coming into sansaar to unite us with the Lord who is agochar (imperceivable and beyond human perception?)

    How could there be Shabda, from the Shabda Brahman, if the Nirankar didn't also manifest in the perceivable world as Sound, and also as Light (Jyoti Jyot Paramjyot)?

    Now these concepts of nirguna and sarguna, where do they come from?

    The Vedas depict Brahman as the Ultimate Reality, the Absolute Paramātman (Universal Self). Brahman is the indescribable, inexhaustible, incorporeal, omniscient, omnipresent, original, first, eternal, both transcendent and immanent, absolute infinite existence, and the ultimate principle who is without a beginning, without an end , who is hidden in all and who is the cause, source, material and effect of all creation known, unknown and yet to happen in the entire universe.

    Brahman (not to be confused with the deity Brahmā) is seen as a Cosmic Spirit. The personality behind Brahman is known as Parabrahman (The superior Brahman). Brahman may be viewed as Nirguna Brahman (without personal attributes) or Saguna Brahman (with attributes)...


    Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman are not two different Brahmans. Nirguna Brahman is not the contrast, antithesis or opposite of Saguna Brahman. The same Nirguna Brahman appears as Saguna Brahman for the pious worship of devotees. It is the same Truth from two different points of view. Nirguna Brahman is the higher Brahman, the Brahman from the transcendental viewpoint (Paramarthika); Saguna Brahman is the lower Brahman, the Brahman from the relative viewpoint (Vyavaharika). http://veda.wikidot.com/brahman


    So, if we accept Shabda as empowering Gurbani, then we have to accept that which is Ajooni (unborn) and Nirguna (without perceivable form) has become manifest into the world of perception as Sound, Word, Guru Vakya. If Sikhs only worship and believe in nirguna, they can't worship anything at all. Because nirguna is completely beyond human capacity.

    ਅਖਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖਰੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥
    akharee naam akharee saalaah ||
    From the Word, comes the Naam; from the Word, comes Your Praise.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 4


    from Gayatri mantra:
    "Aum Iti Ek Akshara Brahman" (Aum that one syllable is Brahman).

    Ek Akshara Aumkara.
    Ek Ongkar/Omkar.

    You must understand the Pranava-Nada. Without that not even the first word of the first sentence of Japji Sahib will make sense.

    Four constituents of Om
    The Pranava (AUM) is a combination of four parts, namely, 1. A (Akara), 2. U (Ukara), 3. M (Makara) and 4.Bindu and Nada. These parts are symbolic of 1. Creation, 2. Preservation, 3. Dissolution and 4. Deliverance, which form the eternal life-death rhythm that goes on in an endless cycle. Thus, Pranava is the sound manifestation of God.



    Four states of Om
    The four parts of Om correspond to four states of consciousness:
    1. The sound 'a' is the symbol of the waking state (Jagrath Avastha)
    2. The sound 'u' is the symbol of the dream state (Svapna Avastha).
    3. The sound 'm' is the symbol of the deep-sleep state (Sushupti Avastha).
    4. The closing sound of the syllable, followed by silence, is the symbol of the transcendental state (Turiya).



    Four stages of Om
    The Four stages of the syllable Om are the complete representation of the four stages of sound and their counterparts.
    1. The physical (Sthula) part is connected to Vaikhari sabda.
    2. The subtle (Sukshma) part is connected to Madhyama sabda.
    3. The causal (Karana) part is connected to Pasyanthi sabda
    4. The transcendental part is connected to Para sabda

    Four states of consciousness
    The four stages of sound and their counterparts are manifested in the four states of consciousness:
    1. The physical body operates in the state of wakefulness. It is in this realm of consciousness and through this body that Vaikhari-vak is manifested.
    2. The subtle body operates in the dream state. It is in this realm of consciousness and through this body that the Madhyama-vak is manifested.
    3. The causal body operates in the state of deep sleep state. It is in this realm of consciousness and through this body that the Pashyanti-vak is manifested.
    4. The Para-vak is manifested through the fourth state of consciousness, namely, the transcendental (turiya) state.
    http://k-b-n-sarma.sulekha.com/blog/...ng-of-life.htm
    Can you please tell me per the Singh Sabha definition, what is the translational meaning of Oang/Ong/On? in ANY language appearing in Guru Granth Sahib. I know it is translated as meaning "God." But it means nothing in any language in Guru Granth Sahib.

    Ek Ong Kar
    One Creator God.

    Not quite. That only Islamifies the Vedic concept of AUM, the Pranava Nada which is the roop of nirguna to come into world of pakriti/manifestation through the power of Shabda Brahman which CREATED by mantra vibrational SOUND current.

    And the ONENESS referred to by the EK comes also from Vedas, Ek Akshara Omkara, the Primal God which is Present as vibrational Presence in Sound, and hence you understand the power of mantras. If mantras had no power of vibrational Presence of the Divine nirguna, coming into sargun perceivable form, there would be no power of Guru Vakya. There would be no Shabda. There would be no NAAM. There would be no Gurmantra. There would be no boat of mukti or method of liberation in the Kalyug.

    You see, the translated definition of "One Creator God" is quite meaningless, and therefore false. Within the very term Ekonkar, or more properly, Ek Aumkar, is the very boat of mukti and the method for achieving transcendence through elevation of consciousness to the Turiya state and merging into Divine consciousness.

  6. #46

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੰਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਉਧਰਾ ॥
    guradhaev aadh jugaadh jug jug guradhaev manth har jap oudhharaa ||
    The Divine Guru existed at the primal beginning, throughout the ages, in each and every age. The Divine Guru is the Mantra of the Lord's Name; chanting it, one is saved.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 250

    -----------------------

    ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਦੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥
    gur manthra sabadh sach dheethaa raam ||
    - the Guru has given the Mantra of the Shabad, the True Word of God.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 576

    -----------------------
    darshansingh writes:
    Fourly - pardon me - I don't understand the meaning of Sanatan Dharma. And why go in terminology. Sikhism is a faith which worships one formless god. ( From first lines of guru granth sahib). So there is no place for any images or statues in sikh gurudwara. And those statues were respectfully removed; I believe durgiana temple in amristsar holds those statues now.
    There is no images of sikh gurus also in a sikh gurudwara. The images are only kept in the museums. Nobody bows before images.
    The recent past was very different from the present, despite denials from the Singh Sabha intellectuals and "scholars" or rather suppressors.


    ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
    sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
    The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

    ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
    mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
    By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

    ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
    kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
    The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

    ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
    He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

    ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
    He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

    ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
    saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
    He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

    ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
    banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
    He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

    ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
    sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
    His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
    sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
    He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

    ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
    peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
    The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

    ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
    jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
    The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 1082

    God has 4 arms according to Gurbani, and in fact keeps Vishnu's roop and descends to Earth as avatars and is called after Vaishnavi Divine Naams. Imagine! Now what low-minded "Hindu" Mahant could have deceptively "snuck" those tuuks into Guru's Mat? Or just maybe...it IS GURMAT!


    And THIS philosphical and cultural HERITAGE in Gurbani clearly inherited from VEDAS, SHASTRAS, PURANAS, (while not proclaiming that THEY as mere book knowledge can give mukti, but rather SANATAN DHARM teaching of a SATGURU and NAAM JAP and SANKIRTAN of bhakti for the Divine is actually the method of liberation...)
    One can only conclude that SIKHI is SANATANA DHARMA! Can it be anything ELSE? Because it's certainly not Abrahamic.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
    gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
    The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
    ~SGGS Ji ang 2

    The ONENESS of the All-Pervading God takes on infinity of forms, in varying degrees of greater and lesser complete and partial opulences and does in fact use the agency of the devatay and avtaray to manifest Divine Light in the world of pakriti of thrai gunas and bondage to God's Mayajog.

  7. #47

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Imagine! Now what low-minded "Hindu" Mahant could have deceptively "snuck" those tuuks into Guru's Mat? Or just maybe...it IS GURMAT!
    Begging forgiveness of the internet sangat for any deprecation of Hindu religion by this sentence. By way of explanation was a way of grabbing attention of sometimes stubborn Singh Sabha oriented Sikhs who think and accuse along these lines against Mahants, sanatan Hindu-Sikhs, against Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, and Sri Sabloh Granth Sahib Ji....

    but would never DARE voice such utterances against Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. And hence clearly pointing out especially to them, that these exact same tuuks which explain the God as having 4 arms, Vishnu's roop, descending in incarnation, etc as actually being unimpeachably Guru Sahibaan's own Gurmat/teachings, own Guru Vaakya. Of course it isn't "low." It is incredibly high and beautiful. But these Singh Sabhias have endlessly preached rejection of Hinduism on false political grounds.

  8. #48

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    I am just here to clarify some misinformation. The first lines for Guru Granth ( I am saying it for nth time) are One God, Truth, ..Timeless, Birth-less..
    So, why some people can't understand that Idol-worship is not part of sikhism. Hey, we don't even worship idols of Gurus. Even Guru Ramdas's statue was removed from Golden Temple, when singh sabha reform movement happened.
    -------------------------------------------
    Where in Golden Temple or Akal Takht are the images of Gurus. Where in Bangla Sahib, Sis Ganj (Delhi) ?
    Obviously, there WERE there and have been removed per the Singh Sabha REFORM: read alteration of Sikh religion.

    Which gurudwara have you seen images. Please post the photographs. I will send those to Sikh Missionary College, who may do the needful.
    See above, everyone knows the murthis have been used in pujas by pujaris but have been removed in 1905. Yes, send Taliban to whitewash more Gurdwara murals and suppress the history even further so people like you can outright blatantly lie and deny it ever existed to a whole new generation.

    I have a some disagreements with Harjas Kaur, who, per me, sometimes presents incorrect picture of Sikhism. So, if you really want to know sikhism, read stuff other than her posts - I would recommend - sikhs.org - a good site with some comparison of sikhism with various religions. Read McLauliff, if you really have a lot of time.
    I represent quite an accurrate synopsis (with references and pictures even) of the sanatan Hindu-Sikh (read: PRE-Singh Sabha version of Sikh religion.)



    Read McLauliff

    Are you serious?
    Read the former British Commissioner of British Occupied Punjab for expertise on understanding the Sikh religion?


    Have Sikhs really sunk to such depths they need British Raj to explain
    ?
    (And people have problems with my explanations based on ancient Indic and Vedic heritage. Imagine!)


    While Max Arthur McAuliffe achieved the position of Deputy Commissioner in Punjab in 1882, Macauliffe wrote the popular Tat Khalsa text.

    ‘It is admitted that a knowledge of the religions of the people of India is a desideratum for the British officials who administer its affairs and indirectly for the people who are governed by them so that mutual sympathy may be produced. It seems, at any rate politic to place before the Sikh soldiery their Guru’s prophecies in favor of the English and the texts of their sacred writings which foster their loyalty.’ ‘The Sikh Religion’,1909, M.A. Macauliffe, Preface xxii

    Volume 1, By Max Arthur MacAuliffe p. 13

    http://books.google.com/books?id=E0U...page&q&f=false
    "It seems, at any rate politic to place before the Sikh soldiery their Guru’s prophecies in favor of the English and the texts of their sacred writings which foster their loyalty."

    No one can be serious who promotes this obviously lying weasel as any representative of Sikh faith.

  9. #49

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Believer ji,

    Squid is talking about the principles of sikhism and you are talking about practice by some who call themselves sikhs (even if 90 % of sikhs are such)

    If there are million people, they all will understand and practice their religion as the way they deem fit. So its not easy to discuss the practice of each one of those millions. The best we can say is what Guru Granth Sahib - our eternal guru - preaches is what sikhism is, even if there is no person of earth who does that. When in doubt, ask the Guru; not just any person.

    The following is attributed to Guru Gobind Singh
    "Rehat pyaari mujhko, sikh pyaara naahi"
    which means only the principles are dear to me, not the person.

    Few examples:
    1. We all know that Sikhs can't cut their hair. But still half-or-more who call themselves sikhs cut their hair. Now, their action cannot make it acceptable principle of sikhism
    2. All forms of Intoxication are forbidden, but in India, a large percentage of sikhs drink alcohol.
    3. Same is case with caste system to some extent; and possibly to idol worship.
    Last edited by satay; 16 August 2010 at 11:50 AM.

  10. #50

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post

    And the ONENESS referred to by the EK comes also from Vedas, Ek Akshara Omkara, the Primal God which is Present as vibrational Presence in Sound, and hence you understand the power of mantras. If mantras had no power of vibrational Presence of the Divine nirguna, coming into sargun perceivable form, there would be no power of Guru Vakya. There would be no Shabda. There would be no NAAM. There would be no Gurmantra. There would be no boat of mukti or method of liberation in the Kalyug.

    You see, the translated definition of "One Creator God" is quite meaningless, and therefore false. Within the very term Ekonkar, or more properly, Ek Aumkar, is the very boat of mukti and the method for achieving transcendence through elevation of consciousness to the Turiya state and merging into Divine consciousness.
    Beautiful!!

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