Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: un-clutching at death

  1. #1
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    69
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    218

    un-clutching at death

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    I have been thinking about a specific condition for a while and thought to share it with the HDF community.

    I have been thinking the more one is attached to the world and its contents the bigger the shock or act is needed to relase ( un-clutch) the jiva from the body.

    That is, say a person gets hit by a bus, in this scenario it was that amount of force for the jiva to be stripped away from the body. For some that perhaps die in their sleep less-to-little force is required.
    Why so ? The attachment to the earth, things, etc. is not deep and profound and less force is necessary to unclutch the soul from the body. And for one that is a muni, leaving th body is an act that can be selected at a chose time or place - No force is needed as the soul/jiva is not attached to the body, things, earth, possessions, etc. The muni is established in the SELF and the 'release' is now a joy.

    This notion makes sense to me as it solves the issue of violent deaths vs. passive passing through death.

    This is my conjecture and I have not found this specifically called out in any of my studies as yet. Any others have an opinion on this matter?

    praṇām

    references
    Self and the body HDF post : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033
    Last edited by yajvan; 24 May 2010 at 06:56 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2
    Join Date
    August 2006
    Age
    70
    Posts
    3,162
    Rep Power
    1910

    Re: un-clutching at death

    namaste Yajvan.

    You are right. Body and soul are welded together by the heat of our vAsanas--impressions, to which we are constantly adding in our life. The worldly desires coupled with the fear of the unknown, often complicate the process of death and make it a suffering--even physical and mental torture, specially when the person on deathbed is admitted to hospitals. Only by chitta-shuddhi--purifying the mind, this attachment can be eased.

    Here is a shloka to guard against such durmaraNam/akAla maraNam--violent/untimely death:

    अनायासेन मरणं विनादैन्येन जीवनं
    देहि मे क्रिपय शम्भो त्वयि भक्तिं अचन्चलं

    anAyAsena maraNaM vinAdainyena jIvanaM
    dehi me kripaya shambho tvayi bhaktiM achanchalaM

    The meaning is given in this link:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ambaa-l/message/7499

    anAyAsena--AyAsa means trouble, stress, fatigue etc. anAyAsa is the opposite of that. anAyAsena means without trouble, or pain;
    maraNaM--death;
    vinA dainyena--dainya is poverty. vinA means without. vinAdainyena is without poverty;
    jIvanaM--life;

    dehi me--grant to me;
    kR^ipayA--out of compassion;
    shambho--addressing shambhU--shiva--one who is the source of happiness;
    tvayi--in you;
    bhaktiM--devotion;
    acha~nchalaM--unwavering.

    In the variations of this shloka to suit other sects, shambo is replace by another god such as kRShNa, etc., but one wish prayed for is common across all the variations: painless death and povertyless life.

    *****

    In Hinduism and Bhuddhism, a departed soul until it gains a divine body and enters the pitru lokas, roams about the astral world in the form of a preta. Wikipedia gives a graphic description of how a preta might look like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preta

    Here is some useful information from Theosophy about the possible life of souls that are victims of accident, murder and such other violent means of death:

    From 'The Astral Body' by Arthur E. Powell
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/6464273/Th...-Arthur-Powell

    A sudden death, such as from an accident, need not necessarily affect the astral life in any way for the worse. At the same time, for most people, a more natural death is preferable, because the slow wasting away of the aged or the ravages of a long-continued illness are almost invariably accompanied by a considerable loosening and breaking up of the astral particles, so that when the man recovers consciousness upon the astral plane, he finds some, at any rate, of his principal work there already done for him.

    In most cases, when earth life is suddenly cut short by accident or suicide, the link between kma (desire) and prn (vitality) is not easily broken, and the astral body is consequently strongly vivified.

    The withdrawal of the principles from their physical encasement, owing to sudden death of any kind, has been aptly compared to the tearing of the stone out of an unripe fruit. A great deal of the grossest kind of astral matter still clings around the personality, which is consequently held in the seventh or lowest astral sub-plane.

    The mental terror and disturbance which sometimes accompany accidental death are, of course, a [Page 139] very unfavourable preparation for astral life. In certain rare cases the agitation and terror may persist for some time after death.

    The victims of capital punishment, apart from the injury done to them by suddenly wrenching from the physical the astral body, throbbing with feelings of hatred, passion, revenge, and so forth, constitute a peculiarly dangerous element in the astral world. Unpleasant to society as a murderer in his physical body may be, he is clearly far more dangerous when suddenly expelled from the body: and, whilst society may protect itself from murderers in the physical body, it is at present defenceless against murderers suddenly projected on to the astral plane in the full flush of their passions.

    Such men may well act as the instigators of other murders. It is well known that murders of a particular kind are sometimes repeated over and over again in the same community.

    The position of the suicide is further complicated by the fact that his rash act has enormously diminished the power of the higher ego to withdraw its lower portion into itself, and therefore has exposed him to other and great dangers. Nevertheless it must be remembered, as already said, that the guilt of suicide differs considerably according to circumstances, from the morally blameless act of Socrates through all degrees down to that of a wretch who commits suicide in order to escape the physical results of his own crimes, and, of course, the position after death varies accordingly.

    The karmic consequences of suicide are usually momentous: they are certain to affect the next life, and probably more lives than one. It is a crime against Nature to interfere with the prescribed period appointed for living on the physical life. For every man has an appointed life-term, determined by an intricate web of prior causes - i.e..,by karma - and that term must run out its appointed sands, before the dissolution of the personality. [Page 140]

    The attitude of mind at the time of death determines the subsequent position of the person. Thus, there is a profound difference between one who lays down his life from altruistic motives and one who deliberately destroys his life from selfish motives, such as fear, etc..

    Pure and spiritually-minded men, who are the victims of accident, etc., sleep out happily the term of their natural life. In other cases they remain conscious - often entangled in the final scene of earth-life for a time, held in whatever region they are related to by the outermost layer of their astral body. Their normal kmalokic life does not begin until the natural web of earth-life is out-spun, and they are vividly conscious of both their astral and physical surroundings.

    It must not for a moment, therefore, be supposed that because of the many superiorities of astral over physical life, a man is therefore justified in committing suicide or seeking death. Men are incarnated in physical bodies for a purpose which can be attained only in the physical world. There are lessons to be learnt in the physical world which cannot be learnt anywhere else, and the sooner we learn them the sooner we shall be free from the need to return to the lower and more limited life. The ego has to take much trouble in order to incarnate in a physical body, and also to live through the wearisome period of early childhood, during which he is gradually and with much effort gaining some control over his new vehicles, and therefore his efforts should not be foolishly wasted. In this respect the natural instinct of self-preservation is one which should be obeyed, it being a man's duty to make the most of his earthly life and to retain it as long as circumstances permit.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  3. #3
    Join Date
    September 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    68
    Posts
    7,191
    Rep Power
    5033

    Re: un-clutching at death

    Vannakkam Yajvan and Saidevo:

    I think we have to distinguish between attachment to this world before death, and after death.

    Arthur Powell's stuff is regarding the time period in the astral immediately, and longer after death. I think what Yajvan was referring to was death itself.

    I can only speak from personal experience, and from that, I don't think its true what Yajvan's proposal basically said. The death;s in my life that I have reflected on the most or was impacted the most are:

    4 parents, mine, and my wife's
    cancer, stroke and subsequent 5 months, stroke immediately, and Alzheimer's over 6 years or so
    a student , 9 years old, asthma attack
    a loving uncle, tragic farm machine accident
    friend, tragic accident

    Gurudeva's passing affected me, but not in the same way at all.

    Of course it is very difficult to read another's mind, and try to figure out how 'attached' they are. It is also very difficult to figure out how easy or difficult the death is. Alzheimer's is a good example. There is definitely pain at the beginning stages, but after that, the person shows nothing at all. It is almost as if the soul body has already left the physical body behind.

    When I reflect back on these people, and try to decipher the 'attachment' factor Yajvan spoke of, it seems to me that only one of them was clearly not ready to die. Perhaps two. The parent who died from a stroke over 5 months was one, and the other was the student. All the others seemed quite prepared or ready, but of course its hard to tell really.

    So although I consider it an interesting hypothesis, Yajvan, I can`t see the relationship personally. There are too many other factors such as seed karmas, needs to die a certain way to work out a karma, lessons needed to be learned in this life, the people around the person (whether or not they are emotionally `releasing`) etc, so it would only be a generalisation at best.

    As far as the astral plane goes, I pretty much agree with Powell, and most other books such as `The transition called Death`(Manley P. Hall, I think) as well as my own Guru`s teachings on the subject would prety much support this.

    We (my wife and I) have both felt astral personalities `hovering`around in both negative, and positive ways, but certainly have no real insights such as the theosophists.

    Aum Namasivaya

  4. #4
    Join Date
    February 2008
    Location
    Green Hill in KY USA
    Age
    50
    Posts
    1,186
    Rep Power
    2558

    Re: un-clutching at death

    Dear Yajvan, I have departed here but, this morning in my inbox for this forum account I checked my mail I came to many thread subscriptions. I forgot to shut this off, but it will take effort to find out where to do that. But, I believe this morning it was very important to come here as I see this post and most of all...this is unfortunately my field of expertise.


    I have seen many many people die, all holding their hand. I normally spent between 6 months and a year with clients before they died...sometimes longer and sometimes shorter...(I once had client for less than 3 hours before their family called and told me they passed in their sleep and I wouldn't be needed).

    So I have intimate knowledge of this thing you speak of. I can tell you many things about such deaths.

    The first thing I would say is that some people laying perfectly still on their death bed fight with the ferocity of one who was struck by a car....let me tell you of the two most memorable times of such a thing...
    One was a beautiful wealthy lady, I looked around her large private room and saw she had traveled the world...she wore saree...her room was full of deities....very worldly lady.

    She had MRSA colonized...a very bad death awaited her. So I kneel by her side every night as she watched...and I prayed to the God which I had yet to find a name for....and she was happy. As she grew sicker, I began to have to fully suit up before going in...colonized MRSA is droplet isolated...meaning even in her very breath...the staph lived. I had to gown up, put funny hat on...cover shoes with same funny hats...double gloves...very long process. As I walked in her room I was distinctly aware of the overwhelming feeling that I should NOT close the door...but I had to...it was law.

    I did so. I then went to her side and she pointed out the large windows to the courtyard. The moon rose over the fountain...and the trees swayed in a strong breeze...I looked out into the darkness confused what was making her so scared. I could see nothing. Realizing she was very near death, I knelt to her side and took my own mask off...and I prayed with her. I sent the golden light that I could not know if it worked....but hoped. I asked God...let her die well...or let her grow strong...no suffering.

    She clutched my hand and cried as I did this...very grateful for my company. That is when it happened. I heard three short knocks. Knock! Knock! Knock! on her door. I was crying at this point because it was a very emotional moment. So I put my mask back up and wiped my eyes. Then looked to the door....there under the 1 1/2 inch crack of the brightly lit hallway I could see a dark shadow. I said "Come in?" But they didn't ....they simply hovered there at the door...I could see no feet...but could see them almost shifting their balance as they waited. I said..."Come in?" But they didn't.

    Well, being this room was on isolation I realized that it must be a lazy person who didn't want to take the time to gown up....and I stood up and watched the shadow stand there....and I went to the door and swung it open to complain about their laziness....the 100 foot hall way was completely empty....every door locked...every one but the nurse down at the very end. She says "Is something wrong?"

    I asked her who was here and she said...no one...only you...for hours.
    I walked back in the room, propped the door....and then began to think logically..."this did not happen." Then I see my beautiful lady client...and realized that the witness was present...it did happen.

    This woman was clinging desperately to life....that night... she died.
    Something comes for you when you are ready...I have seen it more times then I could count on fingers and toes...it's wonderful...a friend....mercifully helping.

    But, at the time...I saw it as sinister..taking people who were kind, wonderful away...leaving the incoherent...combative...taking my friend.
    The second time I saw it....was a man who had been so evil during his life...that his own wife and children would not come when I called to tell them he was close to passing. He was SO frightened...filled with Christian fears. Bless his heart.

    He said "I'm afraid...I've been so bad I am surely going to hell for eternity."
    I stayed with him, explained that the bible was wrong...he would live again. He held my hand and I told him it would be okay...I promised on my own life...that the God was not this creature without compassion that he had read about. I told him of the loving God, helping souls learn their way, life time after lifetime. He listened for a while and continued to hold my hand but by then he was gasping for air...and incoherent.

    Again I see the shadows come...and he fought so hard to stay...still so afraid of his own actions to face that being who had come. When he died...the radio which was unplugged came on loudly! It was without batteries! The nurse and I ran to the door scared. We grabbed each other and felt something pass between us out the door...he was gone.
    I began to re-evaluate my relationship with this being after about 20 or so of these cases...I realized I may be too close to it....I began to talk to it when I saw it...and I would ask it to be kind.

    Many many years later and numerous terminal clients later...I accepted a couple and became primary for them. I had taken care of this couple for almost 3 years, loved them as my own family and the shadow came. It sat in their room patiently for several days. But I was angry...these two were beloved to me...and I didn't want them to go....So I say to the being..."What business do you have here?"

    That night it came to me in the hallway outside my room and sat. I realized it was there for me...not them. I said..."then do what you will!"

    The next day I became very ill....we rushed to my OBGYN and it was discovered my child...5 months in my womb had died. I was rushed to emergency surgery as my own life was now in jeopardy from a blood infection.

    I learned to never yell at this friend...it only came to do it's job.
    My Mother's birthday was this past Tuesday. She died in 2001.
    Something very interesting happened during this time. The doctors were baffled how she could still be living...she was on her deathbed on Sep. 10 2001.

    She was seeing the dark shadow and told me to keep the light on so it could not come in the room....and then tragedy happened on 9/11.
    She immediately began to recover. She even began walking. She stayed this way almost 2 months. By then the shadow returned from the great duty 9/11 had placed on Him.

    He returned. My Mother began seeing it once again. She spoke with me about it and I did know that my friend had finally come for my Mother. I spoke to it outside the door. I asked it a favor...to take very special care of this most beloved soul. I also asked that it not become so fond of our relationship that he take me too.:P

    I was very worried our working relationship would shorten my life.
    This being is Yama...most beloved, kind...he comes and can take the life in an instant. Scared or peacefully sleeping...he comes.

    Someday my friend will come for me, and I will finally be able to embrace him lovingly in gratitude for the many wonderful compassionate things I have witnessed. He has given me a wonderful gift...for my devoted service to his cause. I am no longer afraid.

    The intricacies of death are so twisted and specialized for each soul...it is hard to fathom the aspects of how and why each mode of death is chosen. But I will say....when your time comes....Yama can pull the fittest man from his body...without even a second to lapse.

    If ever you wanted to hear the more happier moments of my experiences, I would be happy to share. The positive ones...they are very near to my heart.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    69
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    218

    Re: un-clutching at death

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    thank you all for taking the time to post your thoughts and ideas. My thoughts on this matter is perpetuated from the following.


    When one's time on this earth is done ( some measure it by the number of breaths) it seems a simple task to just collapse and have the life-breath escape. Why do I even suggest this approach?
    Our physical bodies are part of nature and must submit to all the laws of nature in due course i.e. gravity, speed, exertion, energy consumption etc. We are bound by these laws. One key universal law is the preservation of energy. When something occurs in nature it uses the 'least path' or least resistance approach to accomplish something called the conservation of energy.

    So, when one dies why the myriad of ways that this can occur? That is planes, trains, cars, buses, drowning, falling, fighting, fright, might, feebleness, etc.

    All these ways are not conserving the overall energy unless it is needed to get the job done. See my point. Nature is very effective and without flaw, hence there must be something behind these approaches, no?

    One may argue, you are hit by a bus because you deserve that type of ending to your life, you earned that gruesome end.
    While this is mildly plausable, this line of thinking can be applied to most every action ( and I would not argue it too much), yet in the case of death we have a different scenario. Why so? Because no matter how you die , you are dead. There is no 'lesson learned' as far as I can tell on how you die. One instant you are alive, next instant of you are shot, or a car flattens you, where is the lesson . In an instant you are gone. Hence my logic on the type of death that may be needed to un-clutch jiva from the body.

    I have seen many die (instantly, slowly over time) and come to consider this notion as feasible yet am open to new POV's and logic. I also am not firm and inflexible on this notion either. How nature performs her job is always an unfolding process to me and a source of wonder.

    An excellent/qualified jyotisha can look to one's chart and get a feel for the type of death, the time ( year) etc. Yet many do not wish to know this information. Knowing this it does not change the laws of nature but allows one to plan a bit better, but for some perhaps it breeds fear.


    Yet no matter if fast, slow, easy ,or a hard death ...no one escapes the hand of yama.


    praṇām


    Last edited by yajvan; 24 May 2010 at 06:27 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #6
    Join Date
    February 2008
    Location
    Green Hill in KY USA
    Age
    50
    Posts
    1,186
    Rep Power
    2558

    Re: un-clutching at death

    Your words are so very true...not even in the breath of youth can one barter against their fate.

    It reminds me of a famous entertainer from the United States. Their name is Lynard Skynard. I do not like this sort of music but many in Kentucky do...so I have unfortunate knowledge of them.

    What happened was:

    When they were scheduled to go on to the next performace they get on their private plane and one engine stalls...then a second engine failed. One group member named Artemis Pyle asks the lead singer...shouldn't we wait to have these repaired???

    The lead singer...very ignorant man...says..."if it's our time it's our time." He forced them all on this half working plane which immediately crashed.. The plane crashed killing everyone but two people(I think that number is correct). The one who survived? Was the one who question the lead singer about the safety...the other was a young lady.

    When I heard this story I couldn't believe that the band leader took the risk of the plane ride because of such a crazy attitude. He certainly got what he asked for...sometimes the death makes so much sense you can certainly see the reasoning.

    I did not realize a chart could show the time of such things. I would love to know when I will be liberated from this ride. Because I have 8 children who depend upon me greatly...this would be something of a treasure to me.

    If one day you have the time to explain how they formulate such information from a person's chart, I would be indebted for this information as it would help me prepare them. As for me, it would be a wonderful trip from this great task of a lifetime I have experienced.


    If there is a place for more information to learn to formulate this myself, I would be very grateful to direct me? I am a quick learner if pointed in the right direction.

    Only for them would I fear going too early...I can't imagine my husband having such a burden.
    Last edited by NayaSurya; 24 May 2010 at 09:43 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •