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Thread: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaste isa,

    What's wrong with marrying the lower varna? It happens all the time.
    Namaste satay ji,

    yes it happens, even the reverse happens, I was talking about last part of ganesh prasad ji's post 'Brahmin male could marry a lower varna but it is forbiden for brahmin girl to marry a lower varna.'

    This is also one part of spreading anti-hindu/anti-brahmin propaganda by ambedkerites/periyarists.

    In fact in todays society forward castes have highest rate of intercaste marriage. And that too forward castes women have even higher rate of inter-caste marriage. But still speaking that it is forbidden for forward caste women to marry in other caste but not the male is giving chance to anti-Hindus to poison the minds of many Hindus. In my college life many modern have shown resent that there are all sorts of casteist boundaries in hinduism.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste Satay,

    I agree with most of your points. Regarding carrying the caste of Father is true in Indian Society. But that shows relaxation/accepted deviation from Manu. That is what I want to say that the Hindu Society has been liberal in applying the caste/varna rules.

    Regarding Arjuna's status, I never had any problem as I believe in Varna by Guna+karma theory. So, for me, he always was a Kshatriya. Who am I or who is anyone to say otherwise when Lord Krishna himslef calls Arjuna a Kshatriya ?

    Regarding "sahaja karma" word used by Lord Krishna ... "sahaja" literally means "by birth" but the usage of this words suggests another meaning as "that which comes naturally" too. I think both these translations are not much different. However, in fact, it denies the Varna by birth theory as we know from our experience that a person born in a brahmin family isn't always born with brahminical qualities and a person born in a sudra family is not always born with sudra qualities.

    Actually, this is an endless debate. Many great Hindu personalities in the past couldn't resolve this issue. I have no delusion that I can resolve it. That is why I respectfully agree to disagree with Ganeshprasad ji and other esteemed members of this forum.

    I was only trying to stop abuse of people in the name of caste/varna. Please see all my posts on this contentious issue in that context alone.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    namaskar,

    I said that my previous post was the end of discussion from my point of view. However, this question keeps coming to my mind so I ask it here.

    There is great confusion because people mix varna and caste together. To me these are not the same. Caste/Gotra is something that gets carried forward from father to children.

    To the anti-caste scholars, I ask the following: Let's imagine that there is no caste in Indian society. At the time of any yagya, marriage or funeral rites, the priest will ask you (or your family in case of death) your gotra. What 'gotra' are you going to give to the priest? Or are you going to shun all the yagya, marriage, death ceremonies that require the 'gotra'?

    I think that caste system is a practical system in Indian society and dropping your caste is impractical.

    Instead of fighting against the caste system, we should fight against the mistreatment of every human being no matter what caste they belong to. That I think can be acheived by properly applying the law of the land. For example, if a brahmin or khatra abuses a low caste person, charge them according to the laws of the land. If it's the other way around, same thing, use the law of the land. Put the justice system to practice and let justice work; that's why we have governments i.e. to ensure equal practical rights to everyone.
    satay

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam all

    I think this has now become personal and emotional, people are building their straw man (army)and then shoot it down.. Today the Varnashram is a mess I don’t need to go into it, nor do I need to justify it. I am still waiting for anyone to convince me how jatKarma would be performed of a child, the name giving of the child for a Brahmin denoting auspicious a Kshatriya connected with power and so on.and then there is question of training in the respective field, begins for a Brahmin 5-8 years old upnayana sanskar, for Kshatriya at 11 and vashiya at 12, the Shastra do not speak of sudra training at all. Who is objectively going to decide the varna of a child at this early stage, to start with the name giving at 10-12 days old? What criteria are you going to use? stick to what is and was traditional


    Pranam Isavasya ji

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post

    Devotee ji mentioned in previous posts people are unfamiliar with realities of life. I am 100% convinced now that many people are completely unaware about realities of life. Ganesh prasaad ji mentioned yadavas as kshatriye , now for a moment let us forget scriptures and see realities of life.
    Oh wise one be convinced yourself, but you are not convincing me, specially if you are going to tell me to forget scriptures, Lord Krishna says in no uncertain terms, let scripture be your guide.

    Yadu dynasty perished when Lord Krishna decided to unfold his lila. So all yours and devotee’s assertion holds no water with me.

    In todays society they are no where accepted as ksahtriye, in fact only after mulayam yadav ,lalu yadav rose to power yadavas began to assert themselves as ksahtriye. In UP & MP they are looked down as 'ahirs' by forward castes as well as by dalits. In bihar they are called gawaar by forward castes as well as dalits. Mind you above is not my view but I am telling you what is view of society of India. As far as Gujjars are concerned they were initially kshatriye but again lost power and were displaced from kshatriye status by neo-kshatriyes like rajputs.
    See above

    Now In North India Rajputs and jats are rated as kshatriyes, many people dont count jats though. At the same time there are big communities called Muslim rajputs and muslim jats. If birth decides varna system, are you ready to count muslim rajputs and muslim jats as kshatriyes too ? Dont say all of them converted by force, many of them converted because of greed of holding empires or willingly.
    Rajput by name means son of the royals, therefore they can only be Kshatriya but for those who, for what ever reason they left the fold, are no longer in the varna so your question is only for you to decide.

    What I want to tell is its not birth but It's karma which ultimately decides varna.
    Do tell, but you are defeating your own argument, decide for your self is your birth as a result of your past karma or not? If yes then birth will manifest your svabhav from past karma, if not then this Karma is bogus, there is no reason and rime for our birth.
    On the other hand if by ultimate you mean at some point in time, which could be any age your current karma will manifest your varna then you are faced with a vacuum in time where you are without any varna, this would pose a lot of question, I let you think about it.
     
    Its just that being born in a particular family enhances the chance a person will follow his parents varna, provided the parents follow too.
    Yes this is and was the tradition and it worked perfectly well until the age of Kali set in first the Muslims and then the British saw to that the system is destroyed, but they can never succeed because it is a divine creation.

    I asked a question in my previous posts there are many soldiers and policemen protecting our country and it's citizens who were not born in kshatriye family, will you not count them as kshatriye ? Don't say it is rare for people of one varna to show traits of other varna. There are innumerable vaishya,shudra and even brahmins In india army. By arrogantly calling many martyrs of India as shudra because they were born in such caste is the reason there is castism In Indian society, get over these things and start recognizing people by their karma as is message of sanatan dharm. After that it wont take more than 10 years before Islam and Christianity gets kicked out of India.
    First let us get this straight who has arrogantly called any martyrs of India a shudra?
    I certainly do not appreciate such baseless accusation.

    Now coming to the modern army, this is a complete new ball game, organised by political governments issuing orders from behind the desk, the generals plotting their dirty war games hidden behind the underground bunkers, shooting those deadly weapons and killing thousands of innocents with it, not my idea of Ksahtriya who would lead from the front, who uphold dharma and protects the innocents. That is not to say India should not have a modern army and no one here making a judgement on it.
     
     
    Dear ganesh prasaad ji, Your statements can be taken by ambedkarites,periyaarists and made a weapon for anti-brahmin propaganda. Just because of these comments all brahmins or kshatriyes are leveled as racists. As far as I know it is muslims who claim, they can marry non-muslim women but non-muslims cant have muslim women. And believe me In my innumerable fights with ambedkarites I have always encountered this charge that supposedly according to hindu dharm kshatriyes and and other upper castes have the right to marry women of dalits, but not the other way. Please consider consequences before making such arguments.
    I don’t really care for ambedkarites nor do I formulate my dharma to suit them. I was simply making a point and that point which I said do not quote me, i am not even encouraging intercaste marriage unfortunately western influence is quickly killing our age old tradition of arranged marriages, soon there may not be any varna to talk about, I don’t know why I bother.
     
     
     
    I don't know how many innumerable examples have been given to you, smaranam ji and devotee ji gave you examples from upanishad, i also gave you examples of vedic rishis and innumerable examples from vishnu puran where people born in one varna came to be recognized in another varna, do you want me to quote them again ? Also my earnest request mahabharata may be a great book , but we should look to eternal vedas , upanishads more than anything else for coming to conclusion about such thing as Varnashram
    So your few examples are innumerable and the millions of people who practice this tradition by birth that had been handed down from time immemorial are wrong?
    It is ok for devotee to quote Manu smurti but I should ignore Mahabharat? yes
     
     
     
    dharma. Also you had questioned devotee ji over how he can reject Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati's view, now what sort of argument is that ? I say maharshi dayanand saraswati and swami vivekananda support the view of devotee ji, How can you reject them ?
    Now you should learn to get your facts right, it was not me who questioned Devotee ji, Tta rightly question him since he follows advaita and Sri Chandrasekhara comes in his lineage.
    As for Dayanda or Vivekananda I do not follow either I may respect them but that’s all.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    Well in my real life I have seen many rajputs, kayasthas, etc going through jenau sanskaar, but again the caste system has got so abused that many castes are unsure of their varna.. gujjars claim to be kshatriye but rajputs protest this status for gujjars. kayasthas rate themselves to possess dual varna of kshatriye-brahmin but they are taken as vaishya in north india and were taken as sudra in bengal a 100 year ago. marathas claim to be kshatriye but brahmins from maharshtra discounted them from the status, innumerable times I have heard nairs claiming to kshatriye but namboodris not accepting and calling them shudra. Also your claim that kshatriye-vaishya are not doing enough is definitely false. There are many kayasthas, vaishyas,etc who have done much for sanatan dharm, also many mutths are now owned by non-brahmins. Many dharm gurus and dharm propagators are non-brahmins too. Please open your eyes sir.
     
    Yes my eyes are wide open, you are not telling us anything new, this is what Goswami Tulasidas had to say I quote a few extract
    1052
    *›R∫ RÅMACARITAMÅNASA *
    Every virtue had been engulfed by the sins of Kali; all good books had disappeared; impostors had promulgated a number of creeds which they had invented out of their own wit. The people had all fallen a prey to delusion and all pious acts had been swallowed by greed. Now listen, all-wise mount of ›r∂ Hari, while I describe a few peculiarities of Kali.
    (97 A-B)
     
     
    choupai
    No one follows the duties of one’s own caste, and the four Åsramas or stages of life also disappear. Every man and woman takes delight in revolting against the Vedas. The Bråhmanas sell the Vedas; the kings bleed their subjects; no one respects the injunction of the Vedas. The right course for every individual is that which one takes a fancy to; a man of erudition is he who plays the braggart. Whoever launches spurious undertakings and is given over to hypocrisy, him does everyone call a saint. He alone is clever, who robs another of his wealth; he who puts up false appearances is an ardent follower of established usage. He who is given to lying and is clever at joking is spoken of as a man of parts in the Kali age. He alone who is a reprobate and has abandoned the path of the Vedas is a man of wisdom and dispassion in the Kali age. He alone who has grown big nails and long locks of matted hair is a renowned ascetic in the Kali age. (1-4)

    1054
    *›R∫ RÅMACARITAMÅNASA *
    Men and women talk of nothing else than the Knowledge of Brahma; while in their greed they would kill a Bråhmana or, for the matter of that, even their own spiritual guide for the sake of a single shell. ›µudras argue with the twice-born : ìAre we in anyway inferior to you? A good Bråhmana is he who knows the truth of Brahma !î and defiantly glower at them.
    (99 A-B)
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    Jai Shree Krishna
     
    Last edited by Ganeshprasad; 25 May 2010 at 04:38 PM.
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste ganesh prasad ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    I am still waiting for anyone to convince me how jatKarma would be performed of a child, the name giving of the child for a Brahmin denoting auspicious a Kshatriya connected with power and so on.and then there is question of training in the respective field, begins for a Brahmin 5-8 years old upnayana sanskar, for Kshatriya at 11 and vashiya at 12, the Shastra do not speak of sudra training at all. Who is objectively going to decide the varna of a child at this early stage, to start with the name giving at 10-12 days old? What criteria are you going to use? stick to what is and was traditional

     

    It can be done just as satyakama was initiated by gautama without any knowledge about his father's gotra and in spite of his mother being a sudra. The pramana comes from such revered text as chandogya upanishad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post


    Oh wise one be convinced yourself, but you are not convincing me, specially if you are going to tell me to forget scriptures, Lord Krishna says in no uncertain terms, let scripture be your guide.

    Yadu dynasty perished when Lord Krishna decided to unfold his lila.
    I have previously said you can follow your belief sir, I have problem only when Idea of people who talk about varna through karma are seen as wrong. Of course interpretation can be certain for me and you both.



    Yes yadu dynasty perished with lord krishna's lla, but there are as much as 54 Million Hindus who claim to be Yadavas from krishna's clan. Whether you ignore them or not, the problem of what varna should be assigned to these 54 million hindus or should they be counted Avarna will remain irrespective of your or any one's brushing of the issue, all these things matters a lot if varna is by birth solely.The whole system can get disturbed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Rajput by name means son of the royals, therefore they can only be Kshatriya but for those who, for what ever reason they left the fold, are no longer in the varna so your question is only for you to decide.

    Rajput by name means son of the royals, therefore they can only be Kshatriya ?


    This is quite an amazing argument but much to ponder over. You say those who left Hindu fold and converted to Islam are no longer in varna. Fine that's Ok with me. But you assign dharma of one person with his varna. Again varna assigns occupation. So shouldn't you also relegate people who leave their varna's duties from fold of their varna ? some reality check- I come from a society (Muhhala) which is primarily rajput dominated, at least 10-11 of my friends are rajputs, I hardly know 1 or 2 whose relatives are in army or police. Some come from thekedar background (constructor) , some are engineers, teachers or have peasant background, some are even shopkeeper. How they can be considered kshatriye now ? For me here starts a mockery of pious varnashrama dharma.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Do tell, but you are defeating your own argument, decide for your self is your birth as a result of your past karma or not? If yes then birth will manifest your svabhav from past karma, if not then this Karma is bogus, there is no reason and rime for our birth.
    On the other hand if by ultimate you mean at some point in time, which could be any age your current karma will manifest your varna then you are faced with a vacuum in time where you are without any varna, this would pose a lot of question, I let you think about it.
    Again the argument is actually against birth based system particularly in kaliyuga as I have shown in the apparent conflicts we see in the real society. Its very rare that people born in a particular varna are really showing characteristic of that varna. Apart from example of people not doing occupation of their varna so many kshatriye clans conversion to Islam (some times forced, some times by greed or consent) is a clear proof in Kaliyuga the inheritance level is much weak. Even from shastra you should see that with time human behavior and power has changed. In tretayuga people lived for 10000 of years, does that happens now ? Tapasyavis were able to get boons from devtas, but it doesn't happens now. Remember it is kaliyuga and power of inheritance is not so much. My argument is simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    First let us get this straight who has arrogantly called any martyrs of India a shudra?

    Now coming to the modern army, this is a complete new ball game, organized by political governments issuing orders from behind the desk, the generals plotting their dirty war games hidden behind the underground bunkers, shooting those deadly weapons and killing thousands of innocents with it, not my idea of Ksahtriya who would lead from the front, who uphold dharma and protects the innocents. That is not to say India should not have a modern army and no one here making a judgment on it.




    I think it is our neighbours and Maoists who play those dirty games and of course our army are truly doing kshatriye's Job. Each day so many jawans give their life for protecting our country. Again I hadn't got any answer from my previous question so I had raised it. So if you truly respect martyrs and believe them kshatriye then many of those who lay their life are born in non-kshatriye family. This again proves one can be a kshatriye by karma or any varna irrespective of birth with your assent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post


    Now you should learn to get your facts right, it was not me who questioned Devotee ji, Tta rightly question him since he follows advaita and Sri Chandrasekhara comes in his lineage.
    As for Dayanda or Vivekananda I do not follow either I may respect them but that’s all.
     
    I wont answer for such senior member like devotee ji, but let me clarify for myself (though I am not a advaitin) being advaitin doesn't necessarily means following sri Chandrasekhara saraswati ji, with all due respect for sri chandrasekhara saraswati ji, he is acharya of smartha sampradaya, There are many people who follow Neo-adviata of vivekananda or some other gurus and they may not follow sri chandrasekhara saraswati ji.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    So your few examples are innumerable and the millions of people who practice this tradition by birth that had been handed down from time immemorial are wrong?[/i]

     
    In today's society I don't see even 20% people rightfully sticking to their varna. I gave you many examples, of course even our veda,upanishad,mahabharata ,ramayana and purans are not authored by people born in true brahmin family, had they been really belonging to same varna as their birth, they could have wrote tamsic texts, but by tapasya, knowledge or jnana they all excelled. (ex- valmiki-ramayana, satyakama -many upanishad, some vedic mantras credited to non-brahmins) But I don't see any reasons to continue this debate, I respect your thought but I have the right to follow mine too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Yes my eyes are wide open, you are not telling us anything new, this is what Goswami Tulasidas had to say I quote a few extract
     


    If people realize what they really are and even society treats people without hypocrisy sanatan dharm will be much better off.
    Traditionalists should also try to understand my views, I am not only one with my view, many hindus share my view. Our country's and religion's existence itself is in trouble. The adharmic religions have captured Sindh kashmir, bangladesh etc which are parts of akhand bharat. They are even growing in population in remaining India day by day. 24% Hindus of pakistan has become 1 % after brutal and forceful conversion. Same is story of bangladesh. Our society is completely divided on basis of caste, we know perverted media wrongly portrays that few so called elites hindus suppress some people belonging to particular dalit or OBC castes, we all know in our society people of high CLASS and power suppress poor people, and many times it is forward castes more than any who get suppressed, reservation & Maoist terror for example. Some of my own relatives have suffered from these maoists. By realizing our fellow hindus status according to their karma and trying to get various hindus into actively indulging in sanatan dharm we can get out of this mess and kick out Jihadis and missionaries and save our country and dharm. Thats all i am saying here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    I think this has now become personal and emotional, people are to building their straw man (army)and then shoot it down..

     



    I don't think it is anything like that, I don't understand why you always refer that many people with progressive thinking are calling varna system blot here. All admire varna system, but attaching karma as a big factor in deciding varna doesn't amounts to calling it blot.



    Last edited by isavasya; 25 May 2010 at 06:38 PM.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam Isavasya ji

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    Namaste ganesh prasad ji,
    It can be done just as satyakama was initiated by gautama without any knowledge about his father's gotra and in spite of his mother being a sudra. The pramana comes from such revered text as chandogya upanishad.
    You still have not answered all the questions and frankly there are no clear answers.
    As for the revered text of chanddogya upanisad people tend to forget the requirement for the ashram was to know a Brahmin gotra for the student to enrol. If in a rare case Gautama rsi ascertain that only Brahmin could have spoken such a truth he accepted him. Not that he was accepting anyone from other varna simply because they could or may speak the truth.
    On the other hand in Mahabharat Dronacharya would only teach to Kshtriya boys even though Karna was able but by his apparent birth, he was rejected, so was Ekvaliya here ability was not the requirement but his birth was the main criteria.

    As I keep repeating my self, the Kali yuga is in progress, Dharma has become more and more obscure; the standard has dropped in all the varna, not helped by the brutal occupation of foreigners. (this class ridden bigotry was exaggerated and exploited by the biggest class conscious, the Brits) it is our own further going away from Dharma that this system is being destroyed.

    I will not deviate from Shastra and tradition ? It is still the best system on offer if we strip out the discriminatory and egoistic superiority complex.

    Class system is never going to go away. Good luck if you can improve it, for me varna system is meaning less if there is no Dharma.





    I wont answer for such senior member like devotee ji, but let me clarify for myself (though I am not a advaitin) being advaitin doesn't necessarily means following sri Chandrasekhara saraswati ji, with all due respect for sri chandrasekhara saraswati ji, he is acharya of smartha sampradaya, There are many people who follow Neo-adviata of vivekananda or some other gurus and they may not follow sri chandrasekhara saraswati ji.

    Try sticking to the point, you had accused me off the statement i had nothinh to do with.
    Your objection was answered, it was a reasonable question to ask by TTA, your answer does not reflect your original question.

    Rest of your post I have no time to address especially when it deals with mess up that the system is.

    Jai Shree Krishna
     
     
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste ganesh prasad ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Isavasya ji



    You still have not answered all the questions and frankly there are no clear answers.
     
    As far as I am concerned, Its me who answered all your queries and you said you wont reply to all my questions because of time limitations. Whether my answers are not clear or yours is for each of us to decide.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    As for the revered text of chanddogya upanisad people tend to forget the requirement for the ashram was to know a Brahmin gotra for the student to enrol. If in a rare case Gautama rsi ascertain that only Brahmin could have spoken such a truth he accepted him. Not that he was accepting anyone from other varna simply because they could or may speak the truth.


    He was clear in his choosing the boy, his criteria was purity of heart and satwic nature of satyakama. It was the Guna by which he was chosen. Of course his mother was a shudra anyways. Drona is not the only example in the world. Drona even fought on side of adharmis, which proves a person may not be right in everything he does. Aietreya mahidasa and kavash ailush story supports my stand too. Now again the same thing you are doing, many scholars are clear regarding story of satyakama as I have described, but if you have your own concept of that story supported by some of scholars you like, then I have no problem, but then I wont change my stand . You follow your beliefs and I will mine without forcing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    I will not deviate from Shastra and tradition ? It is still the best system on offer if we strip out the discriminatory and egoistic superiority complex.


    So will I not deviate, sanatan dharm permits people to live life according to their guna.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post

    Rest of your post I have no time to address especially when it deals with mess up that the system is.
    Well you already accept the system is in mess, I will do my best to improve it. You may answer or not, the mess is destroying sanatan dharm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    for me varna system is meaning less if there is no Dharma.

    Exactly! Thats whats happening today .
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam Isavasya ji

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    Namaste ganesh prasad ji,



    As far as I am concerned, Its me who answered all your queries and you said you wont reply to all my questions because of time limitations. Whether my answers are not clear or yours is for each of us to decide.
    great so you have addressed my query as to namkaran sanshkar, a brahmin boy gets auspicious name, a Kshatriya connected with power and so on.and then there is question of training in the respective field, begins for a Brahmin 5-8 years old upnayana sanskar, for Kshatriya at 11 and vashiya at 12, the Shastra do not speak of sudra training at all.

    your theory until such time the guna manifest which could be any age, the child remains avarna? yes.


    He was clear in his choosing the boy, his criteria was purity of heart and satwic nature of satyakama.
    So there was no requirement in his ashram to know the Gotra yes? i wonder why he would be asked that in the first place?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranaam ganesh prasad ji

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    great so you have addressed my query as to namkaran sanshkar, a brahmin boy gets auspicious name, a Kshatriya connected with power and so on.and then there is question of training in the respective field, begins for a Brahmin 5-8 years old upnayana sanskar, for Kshatriya at 11 and vashiya at 12, the Shastra do not speak of sudra training at all.
    your theory until such time the guna manifest which could be any age, the child remains avarna? yes.
    Sudra here means those who never leave the gunas of sudra and never are fit to be vaishya,brahmin or ksahtriye. These sort of people never need to be initiated.


    These ages are prescribed as auspicious for child having traits of respective varnas to be initiated, it is not that one can't have the gunas of any varna after these age. I think you should know in many parts of India quite a few brahmins go through upanayana sanskaar during marriage or elder brother's marriage. Do they lose their varna if they dont go through upanayana during prescribed age?



    Now coming to second part, no till upanayana children are not be considered avarna, but shudra. Even a child born in a brahmin family is considered a sudra till he is fit to be initiated.


    janmana jayate sudrah
    samskarad bhaved dvijah
    veda-pathad bhaved vipro
    brahma janatiti brahmanah



    "By birth every one is a shudra, by samskars he becomes a Dvija (i.e., twice-born). By learning (studying Vedas), he becomes a Vipra and by realizing Brahman, he attains the status of a Brahmana.


    So by proper training only one steps up the ladder of spirituality or sanskaras. Again I will say, If a child is born in a practicing brahmin,kshatriye,vaishya,sudra parents, he is more likely to follow, but he can also denigrate to lower level, and at times he can also climb up. Showing Vaishya's and kshatriye's guna is relatively easier but showing traits of brahmin is very very difficult.


    Remember even we have examples in shastra ,also we can see in real life how some people fall or rise from level of his parents and of course history also shows, Devil dhananand was thrown out of his empire by mahapandit chanakya with aid of Sudra chandragupta. We must remember chanakya was no ordinary brahmana. The end result of this turnover was India became golden bird and chandragupta finished many evil mellechas from bharat varsha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    So there was no requirement in his ashram to know the Gotra yes? i wonder why he would be asked that in the first place?

    Of course sir during those times in those yuga, inheritance was much greater than today , so normally children born in brahmana family came and thus gautama asked about satyakama's gotra, but even if he failed to mention about his fathers gotra and his mother was sudra, he was taken by gautama because of his guna and behaviour of truthfulness. So one can be initiated despite being born in lower varna. But for that one has to show behaviour of truth and piousness.
    When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence (Svetasvatara Upanishad IV-18). :)

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste all,

    Quote Originally Posted by isavasya View Post
    Sudra here means those who never leave the gunas of sudra and never are fit to be vaishya,brahmin or ksahtriye. These sort of people never need to be initiated.
    That is an excellent observation !

    I would add here a bit :

    Initiation of a Brahmin boy at an early stage is good and auspicious. There can't be any harm in that. If he is not able to conform to the requirements of being a Brahmin .... he will come to his natural lower status. Coming from a higher state to a lower one is not discriminatory. Stopping a person to go the higher state is a crime. A "Sudra boy by birth", if he exhibits excellent traits and inclination to learn, should not be left out on the plea that he was born into a lower varna. If he is discriminated on the basis of his birth, it will not only be injustice against him personally but the society will also be a loser by failing to gain from his potential of becoming better than what is prescribed by the promoters of "varna by birth" for him !

    The problem is not in initiation of a Brahmin ... the problem starts when we try to make it a rule for all castes on the basis of birth. For example, even if one can be an excellent warrior but as he is a Sudra we would ask him to mend shoes because his father was a shoemaker. One of the the Rig Veda's Rishi's father was a doctor (a Sudra or a Vaisya ? ) by profession and his mother ground grains (a Sudra). If that Rishi was stopped from learning & forced to learn the art of selecting medicines or grinding grains, would we get the benefit of his wisdom in the form of his richas today ? If Chandragupta Maurya (a Sudra) was forced to learn only the art of taming peacocks from his father, would we get as excellent an emperor as him ? Let's not forget that no Kshatriya emperor could match the prowess and skill of a ruler of Chandragupta Maurya. The goden period of India was during the rule of the Gupta dynasty. If the Guptas were told to concentrate only on their business than adopting Kshatriya Dharma, India would have certainly missed the benefit of their good rule. Even today, if Mr Manmohan Singh (a Sudra) would have been forced to adopt only the trade of of his caste, the India would have gone into deep fianancial crisis in the early nineties.

    The destruction of the Mahabharata could have been stopped if Arjuna's behaviour towards Karna was not discriminatory on the basis of caste ! Already India has suffered a lot by such discrimination and yet we have not learnt any lesson. The so called lower castes in India today are using these theories ( the varna by birth) to show how they were discriminated by the so-called upper castes ... which is false for the majority of castes (like Yadavas, the Kurmis, Jats, Gurjars, Banias etc. ... in fact almost the entire OBC). We are only helping them to spread this canard & bring more and more discriminatoy laws against the so-called upper castes. The fact is (even recorded by the Chinese pilgrims) that except the "untouchables" no caste was in a disadvantageous position in the society. The Vaisya, though lower than the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas controlled the economy of the society ! Many old stories start like this : "There was a poor brahmin" ... has anyone heard this story, "There was a poor bania" ?

    The brahmins have become the most favourite whipping boy for such political parties. Those who are in foreign countries don't understand the implications of strengthening "varna by birth" theory. It is the Indians who have to bear the brunt. Think of the brahmins and other upper castes who are discriminated against in all stages of life in India on the "varna by birth" theory. It has almost become a curse to be born in India in a brahmin or in any upper caste family. If you are wealthy, you can manage ... what happens to the people who are poor, downtrodden but labelled as "upper caste" ?

    Anyway, I have already spoken more than my quota on this issue. I bow out of this thread here.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 27 May 2010 at 01:51 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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