Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding
Pranam all
I think this has now become personal and emotional, people are building their straw man (army)and then shoot it down.. Today the Varnashram is a mess I don’t need to go into it, nor do I need to justify it. I am still waiting for anyone to convince me how jatKarma would be performed of a child, the name giving of the child for a Brahmin denoting auspicious a Kshatriya connected with power and so on.and then there is question of training in the respective field, begins for a Brahmin 5-8 years old upnayana sanskar, for Kshatriya at 11 and vashiya at 12, the Shastra do not speak of sudra training at all. Who is objectively going to decide the varna of a child at this early stage, to start with the name giving at 10-12 days old? What criteria are you going to use? stick to what is and was traditional
Pranam Isavasya ji
Originally Posted by
isavasya
Devotee ji mentioned in previous posts people are unfamiliar with realities of life. I am 100% convinced now that many people are completely unaware about realities of life. Ganesh prasaad ji mentioned yadavas as kshatriye , now for a moment let us forget scriptures and see realities of life.
Oh wise one be convinced yourself, but you are not convincing me, specially if you are going to tell me to forget scriptures, Lord Krishna says in no uncertain terms, let scripture be your guide.
Yadu dynasty perished when Lord Krishna decided to unfold his lila. So all yours and devotee’s assertion holds no water with me.
In todays society they are no where accepted as ksahtriye, in fact only after mulayam yadav ,lalu yadav rose to power yadavas began to assert themselves as ksahtriye. In UP & MP they are looked down as 'ahirs' by forward castes as well as by dalits. In bihar they are called gawaar by forward castes as well as dalits. Mind you above is not my view but I am telling you what is view of society of India. As far as Gujjars are concerned they were initially kshatriye but again lost power and were displaced from kshatriye status by neo-kshatriyes like rajputs.
See above
Now In North India Rajputs and jats are rated as kshatriyes, many people dont count jats though. At the same time there are big communities called Muslim rajputs and muslim jats. If birth decides varna system, are you ready to count muslim rajputs and muslim jats as kshatriyes too ? Dont say all of them converted by force, many of them converted because of greed of holding empires or willingly.
Rajput by name means son of the royals, therefore they can only be Kshatriya but for those who, for what ever reason they left the fold, are no longer in the varna so your question is only for you to decide.
What I want to tell is its not birth but It's karma which ultimately decides varna.
Do tell, but you are defeating your own argument, decide for your self is your birth as a result of your past karma or not? If yes then birth will manifest your svabhav from past karma, if not then this Karma is bogus, there is no reason and rime for our birth.
On the other hand if by ultimate you mean at some point in time, which could be any age your current karma will manifest your varna then you are faced with a vacuum in time where you are without any varna, this would pose a lot of question, I let you think about it.
Its just that being born in a particular family enhances the chance a person will follow his parents varna, provided the parents follow too.
Yes this is and was the tradition and it worked perfectly well until the age of Kali set in first the Muslims and then the British saw to that the system is destroyed, but they can never succeed because it is a divine creation.
I asked a question in my previous posts there are many soldiers and policemen protecting our country and it's citizens who were not born in kshatriye family, will you not count them as kshatriye ? Don't say it is rare for people of one varna to show traits of other varna. There are innumerable vaishya,shudra and even brahmins In india army. By arrogantly calling many martyrs of India as shudra because they were born in such caste is the reason there is castism In Indian society, get over these things and start recognizing people by their karma as is message of sanatan dharm. After that it wont take more than 10 years before Islam and Christianity gets kicked out of India.
First let us get this straight who has arrogantly called any martyrs of India a shudra?
I certainly do not appreciate such baseless accusation.
Now coming to the modern army, this is a complete new ball game, organised by political governments issuing orders from behind the desk, the generals plotting their dirty war games hidden behind the underground bunkers, shooting those deadly weapons and killing thousands of innocents with it, not my idea of Ksahtriya who would lead from the front, who uphold dharma and protects the innocents. That is not to say India should not have a modern army and no one here making a judgement on it.
Dear ganesh prasaad ji, Your statements can be taken by ambedkarites,periyaarists and made a weapon for anti-brahmin propaganda. Just because of these comments all brahmins or kshatriyes are leveled as racists. As far as I know it is muslims who claim, they can marry non-muslim women but non-muslims cant have muslim women. And believe me In my innumerable fights with ambedkarites I have always encountered this charge that supposedly according to hindu dharm kshatriyes and and other upper castes have the right to marry women of dalits, but not the other way. Please consider consequences before making such arguments.
I don’t really care for ambedkarites nor do I formulate my dharma to suit them. I was simply making a point and that point which I said do not quote me, i am not even encouraging intercaste marriage unfortunately western influence is quickly killing our age old tradition of arranged marriages, soon there may not be any varna to talk about, I don’t know why I bother.
I don't know how many innumerable examples have been given to you, smaranam ji and devotee ji gave you examples from upanishad, i also gave you examples of vedic rishis and innumerable examples from vishnu puran where people born in one varna came to be recognized in another varna, do you want me to quote them again ? Also my earnest request mahabharata may be a great book , but we should look to eternal vedas , upanishads more than anything else for coming to conclusion about such thing as Varnashram
So your few examples are innumerable and the millions of people who practice this tradition by birth that had been handed down from time immemorial are wrong?
It is ok for devotee to quote Manu smurti but I should ignore Mahabharat? yes
dharma. Also you had questioned devotee ji over how he can reject Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswati's view, now what sort of argument is that ? I say maharshi dayanand saraswati and swami vivekananda support the view of devotee ji, How can you reject them ?
Now you should learn to get your facts right, it was not me who questioned Devotee ji, Tta rightly question him since he follows advaita and Sri Chandrasekhara comes in his lineage.
As for Dayanda or Vivekananda I do not follow either I may respect them but that’s all.
Well in my real life I have seen many rajputs, kayasthas, etc going through jenau sanskaar, but again the caste system has got so abused that many castes are unsure of their varna.. gujjars claim to be kshatriye but rajputs protest this status for gujjars. kayasthas rate themselves to possess dual varna of kshatriye-brahmin but they are taken as vaishya in north india and were taken as sudra in bengal a 100 year ago. marathas claim to be kshatriye but brahmins from maharshtra discounted them from the status, innumerable times I have heard nairs claiming to kshatriye but namboodris not accepting and calling them shudra. Also your claim that kshatriye-vaishya are not doing enough is definitely false. There are many kayasthas, vaishyas,etc who have done much for sanatan dharm, also many mutths are now owned by non-brahmins. Many dharm gurus and dharm propagators are non-brahmins too. Please open your eyes sir.
Yes my eyes are wide open, you are not telling us anything new, this is what Goswami Tulasidas had to say I quote a few extract
1052
*›R∫ RÅMACARITAMÅNASA *
Every virtue had been engulfed by the sins of Kali; all good books had disappeared; impostors had promulgated a number of creeds which they had invented out of their own wit. The people had all fallen a prey to delusion and all pious acts had been swallowed by greed. Now listen, all-wise mount of ›r∂ Hari, while I describe a few peculiarities of Kali.
(97 A-B)
choupai
No one follows the duties of one’s own caste, and the four Åsramas or stages of life also disappear. Every man and woman takes delight in revolting against the Vedas. The Bråhmanas sell the Vedas; the kings bleed their subjects; no one respects the injunction of the Vedas. The right course for every individual is that which one takes a fancy to; a man of erudition is he who plays the braggart. Whoever launches spurious undertakings and is given over to hypocrisy, him does everyone call a saint. He alone is clever, who robs another of his wealth; he who puts up false appearances is an ardent follower of established usage. He who is given to lying and is clever at joking is spoken of as a man of parts in the Kali age. He alone who is a reprobate and has abandoned the path of the Vedas is a man of wisdom and dispassion in the Kali age. He alone who has grown big nails and long locks of matted hair is a renowned ascetic in the Kali age. (1-4)
1054
*›R∫ RÅMACARITAMÅNASA *
Men and women talk of nothing else than the Knowledge of Brahma; while in their greed they would kill a Bråhmana or, for the matter of that, even their own spiritual guide for the sake of a single shell. ›µudras argue with the twice-born : ìAre we in anyway inferior to you? A good Bråhmana is he who knows the truth of Brahma !î and defiantly glower at them.
(99 A-B)
Jai Shree Krishna
Last edited by Ganeshprasad; 25 May 2010 at 04:38 PM.
Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.
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