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Thread: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

  1. #51

    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Gupta Ji,

    You are correct that Paramatma is One. You are also correct, from your perspective, that Paramatma is Mahavishnu. But that name is not from Vedas. My perspective, based on Vedas and Upanishads, is that Paramatma is unnameble but is called Shiva. We cannot throw away scripture. Paramatma has no need to pervade all, since IT is all. Pervading is from our perspective who see the fragments first and then all pervasive spirit.



    What digests food in all is agnivaisvanaro. It is true that agnivaisvanaro's highest place is That only. Shri Krishna is revealed Pragnya of Atma, called Sarvesvara. The revealer of Pragnya is called Eko advittiyam Shiva in Upanishads. But i have no problem if the good one is called Mahavishnu -- till two different individuals are not purported. Since Mahesvara Shiva is called paramaM parastaad (beyond Param and beyond any comparison) as shown below:

    Svet. Upanishad

    6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n
    ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .
    patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-
    vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..
    ---------------------------

    Subjecting Paramatma-Parameshwara to comparison is not possible.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    That is all I wanted from you , pl. and pl. carry on postings . This was my duty to call you back and now I am happy....thank you very much .

    Aum namah parvatipataye har har Mahadeo .

    Namaste Rudra manyava utau ta ishave namah , bahubhyamut te namah .

  2. #52
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    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~


    Namasté

    atanu writes
    What digests food in all is agnivaisvanaro

    This is a beautiful thing… the wisdom abounds in this word.
    We have agni + vaisvanaro . Lets go a bit deeper to perhaps have a better appreciation of what is being offered.


    • agni we know in many many forms, yet for this post it is the 'fire' of the stomach , digestive faculty , gastric fluid.

    • Vaiśvānara is made up of vaiśvā + nara and here is where the beauty resides (IMHO).
    This vaiśva वैश्व is relating to or presided over by the viśve devāḥ; it also means that which is related to viśva which is the whole , entire , universal; all-pervading or all-containing , omnipresent.
    And nara is a person; considered a man , a male; a female would be nārī, yet nara can be considered a person i.e. people.

    We can conclude, at least for this application of vaiśvānara, that the whole, the all containing (viśva) can be found in the human being (nara). That is, the universe is condensed into human form - all the viśve devāḥ-s the creative impulses ~ the laws of nature~, the devatā that manage this creation, express themselves and reside within us. The 'whole' resides in the 'part' i.e. the universe resides in us.

    Agni a principle devāḥ is found throughout the 'whole' ( universe) and also within us - atanu informs us it is that force that brings digestion and nourishes the 'whole' of us. Without this fire (of nourishment , of body temperature, etc) we are lifeless.

    This fire principle is also engaged in our speech, agni can be found there too, yet I digress to another matter with this idea and we can address it on a future post per one's interest.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #53

    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    . You are also correct, from your perspective, that Paramatma is Mahavishnu. But that name is not from Vedas.
    Factually incorrect.Vishnu's abode is highest(Parama padam) says vedas:
    Some references from Rigveda:

    tad viSNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH
    divIva cakSurAtatam || RV 1.22.20 ||

    seers see always that "Supreme Abode" where SriVishnu reside

    tad viprAso vipanyavo jAgRvAMsaH samindhate
    viSNoryat paramaM padam || RV 1.22.21 ||


    Many references were given several times in hdf itself.

  4. #54
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    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by chandu_69 View Post
    Factually incorrect.Vishnu's abode is highest(Parama padam) says vedas:
    Some references from Rigveda:
    tad viSNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH
    divIva cakSurAtatam || RV 1.22.20 ||
    seers see always that "Supreme Abode" where SriVishnu reside

    tad viprAso vipanyavo jAgRvAMsaH samindhate
    viSNoryat paramaM padam || RV 1.22.21 ||
    Many references were given several times in hdf itself.
    Namaste Chandu,

    Thank you for the verses. But please read completely what i wrote. Where is the term Mahavishnu, which was what I commented upon? Your reference does not speak of Mahavishnu.

    No one denies that the Supreme abode of agnivaisvanaro vishnu is paramaM padam . I have already indicated that in general terms as shown below:

    Posted by atanu

    What digests food in all is agnivaisvanaro. It is true that agnivaisvanaro's highest place is That only

    Moreover, the above verses quoted by you do not nullify the verse shown below:
    Svet. Upanishad
    6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n
    ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .
    patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-
    vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h ..
    Beyond the Paramam is paramaM parastaad, which is not visible or not known to senses. It is Lord of Sleep (which is also equivalent of Lord of Death). Sages can only look upto what is visible. Intangible, unnameable, unseen, unborn is the the highest abode of even the all pervading Lord.

    Reflecting together on the Rig Vedic verses quoted by you and the Svet. Up. verse quoted by me will surely indicate that there are no two individuals vying for supremacy etc. These questions of who is above and who is below are of ego-mind.

    Studying scripture together, keeping the knowledge of Shivo Turiya Advait Atma, which alone resides as Pragnya Ghana-Sarvesvara (known in dreamless sleep), Taijjassa-Hiranyagarbha (known in dreaming sleep), and AgniVaisvanara (known as Lord in the waking world), claifies the jigsaw puzzle of names and forms.

    Brahman advaita atman is eko advaitam and also pervades and animates all that we see as animated and non-animated. The advaita Atman being resident in all can be known by one as identical with one's true Self. It cannot be known as something apart from one's own agnivaisvanaro. That much only is my submission.

    Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 01 November 2009 at 10:44 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #55

    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    You are correct that Paramatma is One. You are also correct, from your perspective, that Paramatma is Mahavishnu. But that name is not from Vedas. My perspective, based on Vedas and Upanishads, is that Paramatma is unnameble but is called Shiva.
    Vaishnav tradition bases interpretations of Mahaprabhu Chaitanya that Purusha is Mahavishnu. Purusha is described in Rg Veda. As Chandu Ji pointed out Shri Vishnu Ji's name being described in Rg Veda as "the Supreme Abode."
    tad viSNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH
    divIva cakSurAtatam || RV 1.22.20 ||
    Also Rudra is name used to describe Shiva, and Shiva as a quality is being used to describe Rudra.
    yA te rudra shivA tanU\-raghorA.apApakAshinI |
    tayA nastanuvA shantamayA girisha.ntAbhichAkashIhi || 1\.3||

    namaH sha.nkarAya cha mayaskarAya cha
    namaH shivAya cha shivatarAya cha || 8\.1||

    ~Shri Rudram Camakam
    "Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the UNIVERSE'S FATHER. HIM GREAT AND LOFTY, BLISSFUL, imperishable(ACHYUTAM), LET US CALL ESPECIALLY AS THE SAGE IMPELS US". ( Rigveda 6:49:10 )
    Swami Amritananda, of the Ramakrishna Mission and many others suggest that Rudra is associated with Vishnu in the invocation namas [...] shipivishtaya. (shipivishta appears most frequently as an epithet of Vishnu in the Yajurveda.)..

    (his translation of Sri Rudram and Purushasuktam, pgs. 66-67.) Amritananda has cited commentaries of Sayana and others in the writing of his work. His rendering "in the form of Vishnu" is a common Vedantic interpretation, since the literal meaning of shipi-vishta is an epithet meaning "pervaded by rays". http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...udram_Chamakam
    You say, "My perspective, based on Vedas and Upanishads, is that Paramatma is unnameble but is called Shiva."

    How can that which is unnameable have a name? Because the unnameable is nirguna, no letter, word or that produced by human speech could ever utter it. Nirguna is completely incomprehensible to the human mind. And for this reason the nirgun manifests itself in form, sarguna (Punjabi pronunciation). The entire created manifestation is sargun swaroop of the Ajooni (Unborn) Saibhung (Uncreated) it is true. Nonetheless the Uncreated Light/Sound vibration AUM is pervading the whole creation, OMkara. The ungraspable is pervading that which can be grasped.

    We cannot throw away scripture. Paramatma has no need to pervade all, since IT is all. Pervading is from our perspective who see the fragments first and then all pervasive spirit
    This is true, however if the Rshis who grasped Sruti of Rg Veda describe the Purusha as pervading the universe and all creation why would anyone split hairs to say Paramatma/Parameshvar doesn't pervade? If Mahaprabhu Chaitanya is describing that Maha-Vishnu is all-pervading who are we to say He isn't? It's just a fine hair-splitting of subtle nuances of definition that in no way could be said to be "incorrect."

    The traditional Sanskrit explanation of the name Viṣṇu involves the root viś, meaning "to settle, to enter", or also (in the Rigveda) "to pervade", and a suffix nu, translating to approximately "the All-Pervading One". An early commentator on the Vedas, Yaska, in his Nirukta, defines Vishnu as 'vishnu vishateh; one who enters everywhere', and 'yad vishito bhavati tad vishnurbhavati; that which is free from fetters and bondages is Vishnu.'

    Adi Sankara in his commentary on Vishnu Sahasranama states derivation from this root, with a meaning "presence everywhere" ("As he pervades everything, vevesti, he is called Visnu"). Adi Sankara states (regarding Vishnu Purana, 3.1.45): "The Power of the Supreme Being has entered within the universe. The root Viś means 'enter into.'" Swami Chinmayananda, in his translation of Vishnu sahasranama further elaborates on that verse: The root Vis means to enter. The entire world of things and beings is pervaded by Him and the Upanishad emphatically insists in its mantra "whatever that is there is the world of change." Hence, it means that He is not limited by space, time or substance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu

    In this duality sansaar both are true: the One exists as the entirety AND the One incomprehensible pervades the finite in order to manifest created forms and be grasped by them which are ultimately HE.


    Om sahasra shirsha purushaha
    sahasrakshas sahasrapat
    sa bhumim vishvato vritva
    atyatishthad dhashangulam
    The Purusha (the Supreme Being) has a thousand heads, a thousand eyes and a thousand feet. He has enveloped this world from all sides and has (even) transcended it by ten angulas or inches.

    purusha evedagam sarvam
    yadbhutam yaccha bhavyam
    utamritatva syeshanaha
    yadanne natirohati
    All this is verily the Purusha. All that which existed in the past or will come into being in the future (is also the Purusha). Also, he is the Lord of immortality. That which grows profusely by food (is also the Purusha).

    tripadurdhva udaitpurushaha
    padosyeha bhavatpunaha
    tato vishvajya kramat
    sashana ashane abhi
    The Purusha with the three-quarters (of His energy) ascended above (the spiritual energy). His one quarter of material energy becomes this creation again (and again). Then He pervades this universe comprising a variety of sentient beings and insentient objects. ~Purusha Sukta, Rig-veda (10.7.90.1-16). http://www.stephen-knapp.com/purusha_sukta.htm
    CC Adi 5.66: The reflected rays of His body mix with maya, and thus maya gives birth to myriad universes. CC Adi 5.67: The purusha enters each and every one of the countless universes. He manifests Himself in as many separate forms as there are universes. CC Adi 5.68: When the purusha exhales, the universes are manifested with each outward breath. CC Adi 5.69: Thereafter, when He inhales, all the universes again enter His body. CC Adi 5.70: Just as atomic particles of dust pass through the openings of a window, so the networks of universes pass through the pores of the skin of the purusha. CC Adi 5.71: "The Brahmas and other lords of the mundane worlds appear from the pores of Maha-Vishnu and remain alive for the duration of His one exhalation. I adore the primeval Lord, Govinda, of whom Maha-Vishnu is a portion of a plenary portion."

    CC Adi 5.72: "Where am I, a small creature of seven spans the measure of my own hand? I am enclosed in the universe composed of material nature, the total material energy, false ego, ether, air, water and earth. And what is Your glory? Unlimited universes pass through the pores of Your body just like particles of dust passing through the opening of a window."
    CC Adi 5.73: A part of a part of a whole is called a kala. Sri Balarama is the counterform of Lord Govinda. CC Adi 5.74: Balarama's own expansion is called Maha-sankarshana, and His fragment, the purusha, is counted as a kala, or a part of a plenary portion.

    CC Adi 5.75: I say that this kala is Maha-Vishnu. He is the Maha-purusha, who is the source of the other purushas and who is all-pervading. CC Adi 5.76: Garbhodasayi and Kshirodasayi are both called purushas. They are plenary portions of Karanodasayi Vishnu, the first purusha, who is the abode of all the universes. CC Adi 5.77: "Vishnu has three forms called purushas. The first, Maha-Vishnu, is the creator of the total material energy [mahat], the second is Garbhodasayi, who is situated within each universe, and the third is Kshirodasayi, who lives in the heart of every living being. He who knows these three becomes liberated from the clutches of maya."
    ~Sri Caitanya Caritamrita, Adi-Lila, Chapter 5: The Glories Of Lord Nityananda Balarama http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/5/en1
    Anyways, I think the best explanation possible of this entire debate: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme? Is answered by Sivaya Subramuniyaswami Ji explaining the definition of Aum Namah Shivayah mantra:
    "Na is the Lord's concealing grace, Ma is the world, Śi stands for Śiva, Va is His revealing grace, Ya is the soul."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Namah_Shivaya

    Si -Siva = the good, auspicious
    Va - His revealing grace, Rays, Vishnu
    Ya - the Soul, Atma which is complete as Paramatma
    Everyone is describing some quality of that which is beyond full comprehension. One says goodness the other says rays of light another says the indwelling soul. All are correct. All are aspects/emanations of what is beyond description. The Supreme cannot out Supreme itself!

  6. #56

    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Namaste Atanu,

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Chandu,

    Thank you for the verses. But please read completely what i wrote. Where is the term Mahavishnu, which was what I commented upon? Your reference does not speak of Mahavishnu.
    Maha Vishnu, Garbhodakasayi Vishnu and Kshirodakasayi Vishnu descriptions are given in vaishnava puranas and we will have to delve deeply in to them to examine the explanations.


    No one denies that the Supreme abode of agnivaisvanaro vishnu is paramaM padam . I have already indicated that in general terms as shown below:
    It appears that you had discussion/debate with one Mr Sudarshan Rangaswamy and others on agnivaisvanaro at http://www.hindunet.com/forum/showfl...&fpart=17&vc=1
    It appears to be a fruitful debate.
    Sages can only look upto what is visible

    Then ordinary folks like you and me have no way of knowing the truth.Right?

    Reflecting together on the Rig Vedic verses quoted by you and the Svet. Up. verse quoted by me will surely indicate that there are no two individuals vying for supremacy etc.
    You said "Sages can only look upto what is visible"..
    What is the point of quoting the sages work(shruti) if you think the sages cannot understand what is not visible.Where is the point (from your perspective) in reflecting on the shruti?

    there are no two individuals vying for supremacy etc

    Nobody is vying for supremacy in the verses.Shruti is not dictated by Lord.

    These questions of who is above and who is below are of ego-mind.


    Then why take the trouble ?.Why spend lot of time posting Your perceptions(as you put it)?

    It would be more sensible to spend time chanting lord's names as eloquently put by shankaracharya:

    naamasmaraNaadanyamupaayaM
    nahi pashyaamo bhavataraNe

    Other than chanting the Lord's names, there is no other way to cross the life's ocean.

  7. #57
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    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by chandu_69 View Post
    Namaste Atanu,

    It would be more sensible to spend time chanting lord's names as eloquently put by shankaracharya:

    naamasmaraNaadanyamupaayaM
    nahi pashyaamo bhavataraNe

    Other than chanting the Lord's names, there is no other way to cross the life's ocean.
    Namaste Chandu,

    There is no doubt and disagreement on this. I am not dwelling on other questions of yours but only reiterate that the visible and the unseen are both to be revered and worshipped. Though the seen only is amenable to meditation, the ultimate aim is the unborn --- aja, which is also the unseen.

    Best wishes

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  8. #58

    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post
    Vaishnav tradition bases interpretations of Mahaprabhu Chaitanya that Purusha is Mahavishnu. Purusha is described in Rg Veda. As Chandu Ji pointed out Shri Vishnu Ji's name being described in Rg Veda as "the Supreme Abode."
    tad viSNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH

    divIva cakSurAtatam || RV 1.22.20 ||


    Also Rudra is name used to describe Shiva, and Shiva as a quality is being used to describe Rudra.
    yA te rudra shivA tanU\-raghorA.apApakAshinI |

    tayA nastanuvA shantamayA girisha.ntAbhichAkashIhi || 1\.3||

    namaH sha.nkarAya cha mayaskarAya cha

    namaH shivAya cha shivatarAya cha || 8\.1||

    ~Shri Rudram Camakam
    You say, "My perspective, based on Vedas and Upanishads, is that Paramatma is unnameble but is called Shiva."

    How can that which is unnameable have a name? Because the unnameable is nirguna, no letter, word or that produced by human speech could ever utter it. Nirguna is completely incomprehensible to the human mind. And for this reason the nirgun manifests itself in form, sarguna (Punjabi pronunciation). The entire created manifestation is sargun swaroop of the Ajooni (Unborn) Saibhung (Uncreated) it is true. Nonetheless the Uncreated Light/Sound vibration AUM is pervading the whole creation, OMkara. The ungraspable is pervading that which can be grasped.

    This is true, however if the Rshis who grasped Sruti of Rg Veda describe the Purusha as pervading the universe and all creation why would anyone split hairs to say Paramatma/Parameshvar doesn't pervade? If Mahaprabhu Chaitanya is describing that Maha-Vishnu is all-pervading who are we to say He isn't? It's just a fine hair-splitting of subtle nuances of definition that in no way could be said to be "incorrect."


    In this duality sansaar both are true: the One exists as the entirety AND the One incomprehensible pervades the finite in order to manifest created forms and be grasped by them which are ultimately HE.



    Anyways, I think the best explanation possible of this entire debate: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme? Is answered by Sivaya Subramuniyaswami Ji explaining the definition of Aum Namah Shivayah mantra:
    "Na is the Lord's concealing grace, Ma is the world, Śi stands for Śiva, Va is His revealing grace, Ya is the soul."



    Si -Siva = the good, auspicious

    Va - His revealing grace, Rays, Vishnu

    Ya - the Soul, Atma which is complete as Paramatma
    Everyone is describing some quality of that which is beyond full comprehension. One says goodness the other says rays of light another says the indwelling soul. All are correct. All are aspects/emanations of what is beyond description. The Supreme cannot out Supreme itself!
    Krsn is surprised to note the enlightenment of SurdasjiIn this picture .

    Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;
    Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehesmin purushah parah.
    . The Supreme Soul in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter,
    the enjoyer, the great Lord and the Supreme Self.

  9. #59
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    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    shivashcha hridayam vishnuhu;
    vishnoscha hridayam shivaha.

    the heart of vishnu is the heart of shiva and that same heart belongs to the gnanis,the intelligent among men.
    Sarva DharmAAn Parityajya

  10. #60

    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    The mahaviraat which is described in the Purusha Sukta is identified as Sri Mahavishnu.

    This identification is present in the sakta scripture-Sri Devi bhagavatam as well as the radhatapaniya upanishad/mahanarayana upanishad
    and most importantly,subala upanishad.

    Purusha is a name of Sri Visnu and Mahavisnu is the first Purusha.

    But,Sri Sadashiva is known to be indifferent from Sri Mahavisnu and is addressed as Bhagavan too.
    This is the Gaudiya philosophy which is WIDELY accepted from Guru granth to Sri Ramkrishna to Tulsidas,etc.

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