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Thread: Caste System Debate

  1. #11
    Moderator Note:

    This is really getting tiring. If you are not going to read what I have to say and then put words in my mouth that were not there and then engage in personal attacks against me, I will take serious action. This thread will be split to keep it on topic and irrelevant banter will be removed. The person who brought the caste system up completely out of context was not me, it was you. Your response did not indicate you read and understood my most recent explanation on this thread that my comment on the caste system was simply my opinion and not a mod note. You were clearly the one that inserted it out of context and then now accuse me of taking it out of context and consider my behavior "bigoted," "hateful," and "prejudiced." Your mention of being born a Brahmin had nothing to do with the question the user asked and obviously did a great job at starting a flame or off-topic debate because many if not most Hindus consider varna/caste to be a hot topic. Your complaint about Vaishnavas disappearing here was inappropriate political banter. This is your last warning because it is you that is causing all of these threads to go off-topic and you have done this continuously in the past with multiple forums, threads, and topics.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    Since no action can be performed without birth, and one’s birth has traditionally determined (not through any obligatory rule, but in practice) one’s social and spiritual education, and thus one’s likely actions, I would say that Varna has always been based on birth.

    Birth is just the beginning, however, and the final status of any individual depends ONLY on action.
    I think the confusion here has to do with varna vs. caste. Since varna is based on action and birth is determined by action, it makes sense that a person is born with certain qualities gained from previous lives. I would call this a "karmic birth." What I dispute is the caste system that ignores varna and instead applies the titles on the basis of ancestry, race, and economic status. Just because someone's parents were "Brahmins" doesn't mean that the child is automatically Brahmin. I'd like to see scriptural evidence pointing otherwise. I am talking about religion not culture. Pious individuals can be born in impious families and visa versa. Varna system is clearly in the scriptures. As far as I'm aware, the caste system is definitely not and is a gross adulteration of the varna system. Sadly, most Hindus that consider themselves Brahmins will walk around with that title even though no part of their lifestyle is Brahminical by any means. They think they are entitled to it because their parents were Brahmins yet their parents didn't hold up to Brahminical standards either. It is this ancestral nonsense that I disagree with. If people insist that it is part of Hindu religion for people to call themselves Brahmins because their parents, grandparents, etc. were "Brahmins" and yet NONE of them live up to Brahminical standards, then it is time to cite scripture backing up your claims. ~BYS~
    Last edited by Bhakti Yoga Seeker; 14 May 2006 at 06:56 AM.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakti Yoga Seeker
    I think the confusion here has to do with varna vs. caste. Since varna is based on action and birth is determined by action, it makes sense that a person is born with certain qualities gained from previous lives. I would call this a "karmic birth." What I dispute is the caste system that ignores varna and instead applies the titles on the basis of ancestry, race, and economic status. Just because someone's parents were "Brahmins" doesn't mean that the child is automatically Brahmin. I'd like to see scriptural evidence pointing otherwise. I am talking about religion not culture. Pious individuals can be born in impious families and visa versa. Varna system is clearly in the scriptures. As far as I'm aware, the caste system is definitely not and is a gross adulteration of the varna system. Sadly, most Hindus that consider themselves Brahmins will walk around with that title even though no part of their lifestyle is Brahminical by any means. They think they are entitled to it because their parents were Brahmins yet their parents didn't hold up to Brahminical standards either. It is this ancestral nonsense that I disagree with. If people insist that it is part of Hindu religion for people to call themselves Brahmins because their parents, grandparents, etc. were "Brahmins" and yet NONE of them live up to Brahminical standards, then it is time to cite scripture backing up your claims. ~BYS~
    That is the way Hinduism has been practised for such a long time. Nobody knows what might have happened. Certainly the present form of caste system cannot be the original idea. But there is nothing wrong in a person calling himself a Brahmin because he was born that way, because that is the social norm. It would be good if he would match that profile.

    Caste system is meant to create role models, with shudra aspiring to be a vaishiya, a vaishiya to be kshatriya etc. The Brahmain is the typicaly perfect man in the society. Caste system should not eradicated like religions like Christianity by bringing down everyone to avarnas, but by raising every individual in the society to the highest standards - the Brahmin. When the society is elevated to such a high order, caste system will be unnecessary and can be disposed off.

  4. #14
    Nonsense. I don't care how long it has been in Hindu culture, it is immoral. The only people that support the caste system are generally Brahmins or Kshatriyas. You hear all the time people saying "I am a Brahmin." You never hear someone say "I am a Shudra." The caste system is based on ancestry, race, and economic status. It is inherently immoral to divide people up into groups just because of who their parents were and then call some groups better than others without any logical reason. If a person does not meet Brahminical standards, he has no business saying he is a Brahmin. This bogus caste system is similar to the United States dividing people by race and considering whites to be first class, browns to be second class, blacks to be third class, and indigenous to be fourth class.

    The reason this caste system is bogus is because we have people calling themselves Brahmins when they are eating McDonald's hamburgers, drinking alcohol, taking little to no interest in Hindu religion and spirituality, and busy trying to make money in the United States. The caste system is a form of oppression and needs to be gone. There are a number of worldwide human rights groups as well as groups within India supporting the removal of this oppressive part of Hindu culture. You won't find it in Hindu religion, just in Hindu culture. While these bogus Brahmins are giving themselves fradulent titles, there have been centuries upon centuries of oppression against "lower" castes including "dalits" or "untouchables." There is no such mention in any Hindu scriptures and certainly no where do the scriptures support oppression and shunning of people simply because their familial background and economic status are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    That is the way Hinduism has been practised for such a long time.
    Just because something has been done wrong for a long time does not make it right. Slavery was practiced in the Americas for hundreds of years. That doesn't make it right. I hope you don't support keeping something you know is immoral.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    But there is nothing wrong in a person calling himself a Brahmin because he was born that way, because that is the social norm.
    Yes there is. If human society wishes to advance, it requires human beings to actually use the gray matter inside their heads and challenge those things that their hearts say is wrong. Human beings that would prefer following propaganda over an obvious reality check are complete and utter fools.

    A point worth making here is why should such a Brahmin need to go around telling other people he is a Brahmin? Obviously there is some kind of reason such person has to repeatedly tell others he is a Brahmin. The only reason would be to prove to others how much better he is than everyone else. Another way of putting it is an ego trip. Additionally, these bogus excuses you make are quite sad to read in the 21st century where people are supposed to advance their thinking outside of the box. Your argument is that there is nothing wrong because it is a social norm. Slavery was the social norm. Supporting a social norm that labels certain groups of people as being better or worse than others simply because of who their parents were when in reality such people may or may not be quite different from their parents is immoral.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    Caste system is meant to create role models, with shudra aspiring to be a vaishiya, a vaishiya to be kshatriya etc. The Brahmain is the typicaly perfect man in the society.
    Again, are we talking about varna system or caste system? Caste system calls someone by a certain title just because their parents were of that title and has nothing at all to do with the said person's morality. In such case, a Shudra may indeed be a far better role-model than a Brahmin. Since so many bogus Brahmins go around supporting the oppressive caste system, it is likely that many Shudra victims of the system are indeed better human beings.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    When the society is elevated to such a high order, caste system will be unnecessary and can be disposed off.
    Unfortunately the caste system does absolutely nothing to elevate people. It calls a Brahmin a Brahmin for life even if he is in prision for murder. It calls a Shudra a Shudra for life even if he is a saintly person. Any society that needs such titles just to encourage people to be decent responsible adults is a weak and sad society. ~BYS~

  5. #15
    For the tenth time, I wish some people would actually read what I post before replying. I have clearly noted the differences betwen Hindu religion and Hindu culture as well as between varna system and caste system. It is quite noticable that no one here claiming that the caste system is part of Hinduism has acutally backed up their claims with scriptural evidence. Apparently, my argument is the strongest since I am simply disproving what nobody has even proven in the first place. If you cannot prove what you are saying, why keep repeating yourself? ~BYS~

  6. #16
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    The problem is foreign confusion of the English terms Caste and Cast !

    The idea of Caste was introduced into English from Spanish in the 16th Century, with the particular meaning of racial purity, and particularly referring to foreign impressions of the social order they found in India.


    varNa is primarily “a covering, cloak, or mantle; outward appearance, exterior, form, figure, shape, colour, tint, lustre, or beauty”.

    And “colour” is used to indicate “race, species, kind, sort, character, nature, quality, or property (applied to persons and things)”.

    In paricular reference to human society, “colour” indicates “a class of men, tribe, or order” ~ in Rigveda, especially applied to the Aryas and the Dasas; but more properly applicable to the four principal classes described by Manu.

    jAti is a more modern term for this latter idea of classifying human lineages.


    The English word caste is derived from the Spanish casta (from casto ~ “pure or unmixed” ~ especially regarding breed or race).

    So that Caste is equivalent with Varna in the sense of “race, species, or tribe”.


    The English word cast is used in connexion with “arrangement, shaping, or appearance”; indicating “the plan, conformation, or disposition”, and particularly “the assignment of parts in a play or some action”, and thus “the actors or performers and their individually assigned parts”.

    So that Cast is “one’s assigned part or lot”.

    Cast also indicates “purpose or aim” or “form, shape, appearance, inclination, stamp, mould, nature, kind, style, or quality” or “a dash of some colour, a tinge or shade”.

    And so, Cast is equivalent with Varna in all of the remaining non-racial senses ~ i.e. as indicating “a covering, cloak, mantle, outward appearance, exterior, form, figure, shape, colour, tint, lustre, beauty, sort, character, nature, quality, or property”.


    Caste is Jati, and Cast is Varna.

    Jati (Caste) is intrinsic to traditional Hindu society; and Varna (Cast) is intrinsic to traditional Hindu Dharma.

    For Indian Hindus, the two terms are hardly distinguished; but for foreign born converts to Hinduism the family relations of Jati can only be established through marriage or through one’s Guru Parampara.

    And so, for an aspiring Hindu who has no proper link to any Jati or any Parampara, the whole idea of Caste is totally irrelevant.

    Such foreign Hindus, however, should never deny the importance of Varna (i.e. Cast) in the eternal Lila of Sanatana Dharma.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakti Yoga Seeker

    Unfortunately the caste system does absolutely nothing to elevate people. It calls a Brahmin a Brahmin for life even if he is in prision for murder. It calls a Shudra a Shudra for life even if he is a saintly person. Any society that needs such titles just to encourage people to be decent responsible adults is a weak and sad society. ~BYS~
    I agree with this. The way caste system is today, it offers nothing positive to the Indian society.

    Having said that though...I still will never give up my jAti. Kshatriya I was born and Kshatriya shall I die even if spiritually I am a shudra.

    People with shudra jAti actually have a lot of benefits in the Indian society. They get in medical and engineering schools with 50% marks or less. There are spots reserved for people who are from shudra jAti. In the society, it is actually not "useful" to be born in a Brahmin or Kshatriya family.

    People with Brahmin jAti are not as bad "boys" as the west makes them out to be. There is some christian propaganda there as well. Anyway, I have read about your experience of pujaris in India and it is sad but yes, most of them behave like shudras spiritually.

    I am not sure if I am making sense here but...the point is I for one am NOT going to give up my jAti just because it offers nothing positive to the society.

    I am not sure if you are asking indian hindus to give up their jAti but if you are it is NOT going to happen not until stubborn people like me are around.
    Last edited by satay; 14 May 2006 at 10:03 PM.
    satay

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakti Yoga Seeker
    For the tenth time, I wish some people would actually read what I post before replying. I have clearly noted the differences betwen Hindu religion and Hindu culture as well as between varna system and caste system. It is quite noticable that no one here claiming that the caste system is part of Hinduism has acutally backed up their claims with scriptural evidence. Apparently, my argument is the strongest since I am simply disproving what nobody has even proven in the first place. If you cannot prove what you are saying, why keep repeating yourself? ~BYS~
    jAti can not be proved by scripture. It is not part of Dharma. It is part of Indian society. Bhagwan never said treat the shudra or dalits like lower 'sub humans' it is people of indian society that chose to do it on wrong interpretation of scripture.

    In my mind, still jAti should not be dropped because dropping it would be insulting your ancestors and insulting your ancestors one will take a lower birth in the next life.

    One of the duties of a indian hindu is to give respect to his ancestors and there is a 'ryn' to ancestors that has to be paid, dropping jAti would mean not only not paying that ryn but actually insulting your ancestors.

    Just my opinion...no scriptural support on this.
    satay

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BYS
    Supporting a social norm that labels certain groups of people as being better or worse than others simply because of who their parents were … is immoral
    This is your own impression! Nowhere has it been stated that one Varna is “better or worse” than other Varnas!

    The BEST Hindu is anyone who properly follows his/her own appropriate Dharma, as determined by Varna (both Cast and Caste) and Samskara (Preparation ~ i.e. both Education and Consecration)

    It is not long ago, that one could guarantee that someone named “Smith” was actually a practicing metalworker ~ or that another named “Taylor” worked with cloth, or that a “Cartwright” or a “Wainer” actually knew something about the construction of carriages and wheels, or that an “Archer” or a “Fisher” or almost any Surname you can think of, was actually what they said they were.

    “His Grandfather may have been a Carpenter, but his Father was a drunkard who taught him nothing, and now he has the nerve to call himself a Carpenter! And that Mr Priestly, who does he think he is calling himself better than others? It is immoral, and such bogus labels should be discarded!”

    Really, BYS, please calm down and look at the matter from a broader and less personal perspective. Overly proud young Brahmins pulling out their sacred thread and declaring “I am Brahmin!” is foolish and offensive, and such behaviour should be condemned; but there is no need to reject the whole concept of Varna as it properly relates to Sanatana Dharma.

    And, by the way, I have clearly stated (both here and in other Forums) that I am a Shudra, and that all true Sannyasins are Shudras (in the truest sense of the word).
    Last edited by sarabhanga; 14 May 2006 at 10:29 PM.

  10. #20
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    Exclamation

    Sanatana Dharma has always accepted the idea of Evolution ~ indeed Brahma could be translated exactly as the command to "Evolve!".

    The foolish Christian dogma that each species is created exactly according to its kind, which can never be altered for all eternity, has surely tainted the original Hindu conception of Varna.

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