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Thread: Identity of Narayana

  1. #11
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    Re: Identity of Narayana

    Pranam yajvan

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Welcome back! Nice to see you posting Ganeshprasad.

    pranams
    Thank you, i had a lovely break and good time in India visiting many holy places, and the iceing on the cake was unplanned visit and puja at Pashupati nath in Nepal.
    ofcourse from time to time i did checked up the forum.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  2. #12
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    Re: Identity of Narayana

    Namaskar Ganeshprasad,
    Welcome back! We have been missing you.

    I was just thinking of you last night while browsing the forum.

    Good to read that your visit was excellent in India.
    satay

  3. #13
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    Re: Identity of Narayana

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    What if i give you evidence from Srimad Bhagvat, that it is he who give Moksa.
    Srimad Bhagavatam? Please do.

    Is there such thing as incomplete Brahman?
    On the contrary, all devas are endowed with one or two qualities of Brahman. When I said 'completely' Brahman, I meant Vishnu is Narayana incarnate, whereas the Devas are bestowed with a few powers by Narayana/Vishnu.

    How is this saying any different, as saying in essence there no different between the two.
    Anybody who recognises that Shiva gets his powers from Sankarshana will be acknowledging the supremacy of Vishnu. Hence, he prays to Shiva in the knowledge that Vishnu is responsible for Shiva's powers. So, he gets Moksha. It is because people don't understand this subtle difference that so many problems arise.

  4. #14
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    Re: Identity of Narayana

    Pranam Satay,

    thank you.
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  5. #15
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    Re: Identity of Narayana

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sri Vaishnava View Post
    Srimad Bhagavatam? Please do.
    here it is,

    śrī-prajāpataya ūcuḥ
    deva-deva mahā-deva
    bhūtātman bhūta-bhāvana
    trāhi naḥ śaraṇāpannāḿs
    trailokya-dahanād viṣāt

    The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all Deva, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.Bhagvat 8.7.21

    tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagata
    īśvaro bandha-mokṣayoḥ
    taḿ tvām arcanti kuśalāḥ
    prapannārti-haraḿ gurum

    O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.Bhagvat8.7.22




    On the contrary, all devas are endowed with one or two qualities of Brahman. When I said 'completely' Brahman, I meant Vishnu is Narayana incarnate, whereas the Devas are bestowed with a few powers by Narayana/Vishnu.
    Brahman is indivisible, so if some devas exhibit few qualities does it follow that brahman is incomplete?



    anybody who recognises that Shiva gets his powers from Sankarshana will be acknowledging the supremacy of Vishnu. Hence, he prays to Shiva in the knowledge that Vishnu is responsible for Shiva's powers. So, he gets Moksha. It is because people don't understand this subtle difference that so many problems arise.
    Problem for who? why should any one be bothered who i worship, i am trying to understand how would this affect your sadhna? for us it should be important that we have sadachar in our actions, Dharma acharan is more important than to get bogged down in this hierarchy concept.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  6. #16
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    Re: Identity of Narayana

    [quote=Ganeshprasad;20201]Pranam



    here it is,

    śrī-prajāpataya ūcuḥ
    deva-deva mahā-deva
    bhūtātman bhūta-bhāvana
    trāhi naḥ śaraṇāpannāḿs
    trailokya-dahanād viṣāt

    The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all Deva, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.Bhagvat 8.7.21.

    tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagata
    īśvaro bandha-mokṣayoḥ
    taḿ tvām arcanti kuśalāḥ
    prapannārti-haraḿ gurum

    O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.Bhagvat8.7.22
    This is explained as follows:

    "Since Lord Shiva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Vishnu? Lord Brahma creates, and Lord Shiva annihilates, but both Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva are incarnations of Lord Vishnu and are known as saktyavesa-avataras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Vishnu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord Shiva actually ;Lord Vishnu is indicated, for otherwise Lord Shiva is meant for destruction. Lord Shiva is one of the Isvaras, or the controllers known as saktyavesa-avataras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Vishnu."

    So you see, any devotee who prays with the knowledge that Shiva is blessed with powers by Vishnu can get deliverance. The Devas are in greater knowledge than us, and knew that. If you think Shiva gets his powers by himself, and is equal/superior to Vishnu, it won't get you liberation.

    If Vishnu desired, he can remove the powers from Shiva. Just like Parasurama, who was defeated by Rama. And you know even Vaishnavas do not worship Parasurama. Because he was a Shaktyavesa Avatar, which is only a Jivatma endowed with a few attributes of Vishnu. Rama was a Purna Avatar, ie, Vishnu Himself.

    The reason Hari asked Shiva to drink the poison is simply because it is the leela (play) of the Lord. He likes to give his devotees and servants a role as well. Otherwise, Vasudeva can do everything by himself;there would be no need for Devas, Universe or even us.


    Brahman is indivisible, so if some devas exhibit few qualities does it follow that brahman is incomplete?
    Gita says, 'though I may appear divided, I am undivided.'

    The Devas are jivatmas. They are just like you and me. Just common atman. But everyone has the Supersoul, the antaryami, dwelling within them. For the Devas, the antaryami provides powers. For us, it does nothing. That antaryami is Vishnu.

    They are NOT Brahman. The antaryami within them is Brahman. The antaryami has all attributes, but imparts a few only to the devas.

    Since all beings are part of Vishnu's body, Vishnu can say 'I am Shiva, I am Indra'. Just like Krishna said in Gita, 'I am Sankara'. But Shiva cannot say 'I am Vishnu'.

    Adi Sankara said in his Bhaja Govindam, "The same Vishnu dwells in me, you and everything. If you wish to attain the quality of Vishnu, have Sama Bhaava always."

  7. #17
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    Re: Identity of Narayana

    Pranam

    I am afraid there is no meaningful discussion to have here, all you are giving is your opinion.

    You said no one but but Vishnu can give Moksa but i provide you proof Lord Shiva Gives Moksa. end of story, instead you have to qualify with your opinion.

    you say Devas are Jivas but according to Sri Arjun after seeing the Vishvaroop he says thus,

    vayur yamo 'gnir varunah sasankah
    prajapatis tvam prapitamahas ca
    namo namas te 'stu sahasra-krtvah
    punas ca bhuyo 'pi namo namas te

    You are Vaayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Shashaanka, and Brahmaa as well as the father of Brahmaa. Salutations to You a thousand times, and again and again salutations to You. (11.39)

    So you i accept what Gita say and not merely opinions that is blinded by hierarchy problem.

    you said in another thread we accept all Purans and yet because it does not fit in with your views you reject those so called
    Tamsik purans,(as if to say you know better then Sri Vyasdev) therefor i provided you from Bhagvat puran the evidence, but i knew that would be too much for you to swallow. Better pray to Lord Shiva for he knows how to digest the Halahal Vish (poison)

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  8. #18
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    Re: Identity of Narayana

    Throughout this thread I have been posting with proof. Look at my first post.

    the issue of Shiva giving moksha is explained by Narayana in Mahabharata as follows:

    "The Devas pray to Lord Siva for protection. Lord Siva prays to Lord Brahma in turn. Lord Brahma prays to Me. I am the sole refuge of all, and there is no one above me."

    Thus, Siva is indeed prayed to by Devas, but look who the prayers reach ultimately.

    The Shiva Purana is tamasic. The Puranas classify themselves. I have posted the reason why quite a while ago.


    In any case, yes, Arjuna saw all the Devas in the Viswaroop. The Vedas say that everything is the body of Brahman. The Devas are different limbs of Brahman. The Universe is the body of Brahman. We are also the body of Brahman.

    Hence, Arjuna saw Brahma and Shiva in the body of Krishna, who is Vishnu.
    Last edited by Sri Vaishnava; 24 January 2008 at 06:32 AM.

  9. #19
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    Re: Identity of Narayana

    Admin Note

    Thread closed for review.
    satay

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