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Thread: Who Can Learn the Veda's

  1. #91
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~


    Namaste,

    Atanu-ji points out the relevant ideas in post 88 and in 89 points to the śloka-s from the Bhāgavad gītā.

    For some reason this 4 fold order (cātur-varṇyaṁ) generates great interest… if so ,then we also need to pay the same attention to the 4 stages of life:
    • brahmacarya - student-hood
    • gārhastya - householder
    • vānaprasta - forest dweller ( even with wife)
    • saṁnyāsa - renunciate.
    And what of wake, dream, sleep and turiya ?
    Where then is the guna-s here and the various combination? Is there undo concern when we consider:
    • brahmaṇa-s : Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
    • kṣatriya-s : Rajas as primary and sattva as seconday
    • vaiśya-s : Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary
    • śudra-s : Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary

    praṇām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #92
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    And what of wake, dream, sleep and turiya ?
    Where then is the guna-s here and the various combination? Is there undo concern when we consider:
    • brahmaṇa-s : Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
    • kṣatriya-s : Rajas as primary and sattva as seconday
    • vaiśya-s : Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary
    • śudra-s : Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary
    praṇām
    Namaste yajvan ji,

    Yes. Possibly our guna make up will colour as to what we understand of the above. Whereas, truly, there is no preferential aspect above, except that "Ignorance", a symptom of Tamasa, is the key enemy of enlightment, as per Hinduism. But we know that all Gunas are enslaving, including sattwa.

    Probably, this classification that you have presented, is scriptured in some smriti but I find a small problem here. Originally, as per Purusha Sukta of Veda (the only reference in Veda on the subject), shudra represents the function of the feet of Lord, and by no means can be correlated directly to "Ignorance" that Tamasa represents, or with a lower birth, as ordained by Lord for those who are entrapped in Tamasa.

    Also, Vedavyasa says: Shudra saduh.


    I hope, I am able to make my point clear. And may be with our prakritic spectacle we see too much, because impelled by our own preference we choose sides, when there is no side, but only Brahman and functions of its powers.

    Regards

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #93
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste yajvan ji,

    And may be with our prakritic spectacle we see too much, because impelled by our own preference we choose sides, when there is no side, but only Brahman and functions of its powers.

    Regards

    Om

    I will try to explain it.

    God pervades all forms and names equally, being seated in every Heart. Yet, functions of different forms and names are diverse, without much prejudice.

    Wood pervades equally a table, a chair and an almirah. Some of us who might have fallen off a chair will curse the chair as untouchable. Some, who have been bitten by bed bugs will curse the bed and so forth.

    What to do?

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  4. #94
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~


    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste yajvan ji,

    Yes. Possibly our guna make up will colour as to what we understand of the above. Whereas, truly, there is no preferential aspect above, except that "Ignorance", a symptom of Tamasa, is the key enemy of enlightment, as per Hinduism. But we know that all Gunas are enslaving, including sattwa.

    Probably, this classification that you have presented, is scriptured in some smriti but I find a small problem here. Originally, as per Purusha Sukta of Veda (the only reference in Veda on the subject), shudra represents the function of the feet of Lord, and by no means can be correlated directly to "Ignorance" that Tamasa represents, or with a lower birth, as ordained by Lord for those who are entrapped in Tamasa.

    Also, Vedavyasa says: Shudra saduh. I hope, I am able to make my point clear. Om
    Namaste atanu-ji

    Yes, your post(s) are clear and appreciated. The original post (number 70) was for a better understanding of the guna-s i.e. their tendencies, application to varṇa and how it applies e.g. how can 3 guna produce the 4 fold order (cātur-varṇyaṁ) vs. 'pigion-holeing' any one group i.e. śudra.

    Yes, I have read how the various varṇa are considered different parts of the Supreme - I think this is most excellent and a perfect way to appreciate & consider them.

    Yet I write
    Is there undo concern ?
    Why so? Because Kṛṣṇa informs us nistraiguo¹ , be without the 3 guna-s.

    We are trying to answer VC's questions to his level of appreciation and understanding (manana). Yet the 'full story' is not complete without considering nistraiguo.

    IMHO this too also requires some reflection and I am hoping VC is considering all the points we have offered for his consideration.

    praṇām

    words
    • Bhāgavad gītā, chapt 2 45th śloka
      • nistraiguo = nis + trai+ guo - without + 3 + guna-s
    • manana मनन - thinking , reflection , meditation , thought , intelligence , understanding
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #95
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    Yet I write Why so? Because Kṛṣṇa informs us nistraiguo¹ , be without the 3 guna-s.

    We are trying to answer VC's questions to his level of appreciation and understanding (manana). Yet the 'full story' is not complete without considering nistraiguo.
    Namaste Yajvan Ji,

    'varna' is expressed hue of Brahman filtered through a veil. Removal of this veil is of utmost importance to reveal the Nirgunam.

    Varna means the hue of jiva and Varna also means "veil". It shows the four different ways in which the Divine Self is hidden in human beings. By this, it refers to the ways in which his four body parts make up the four classes, depending on the nature or values that the human holds. The Brahmans hold spiritual and intellectual values and are in charge of teaching the Vedic Sanskrit, thus are made up of his head. The Kshatryas are the warriors that protect the countries and thus are made up of his arms. The Vaishyas are the farmers and merchants in the production nature and thus are made up of his belly and the Shudras are the workers who perform supporting chores and thus are made up of his legs.

    The veil is said to impart four types of hues to veiled Brahman as below:

    White (sattva = truthful; binds to happiness, bliss) , Red (rajas = energetic; binds to need for action) , Yellow (rajas mixture of red and white) , and Black (tamas = inert, solid; binds to inaction or sloth). These four varnas are said to have some approximate correspondence to the four jatis of Brahman, Khatrya, Vaishya, and Shudra (but I have not found any shruti support to be able to link tamasa-ignorance to Shudra).

    --------------------------

    (And we also know that a sadhu also appears to be tamasic, to the western-rajasic eyes)


    If one studies western (or rajasic) definitions and the categorisation of Hindu society as primarily based on Hierarchy as shown in the cited web page below, a common person will become angry, either against or in favour, of the jati system. This anger against or in favour is totally unwarranted, as you have pointed out correctly, as it reflects the interpreter's own guna-varna mixture.

    http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...d(DOCID+in0081)

    ------------------------------

    On the other hand, many Hindus, supposedly knowledgeable, deny very emphatically any role of previous karma towards a birth and thus to jati-kula. They cite Gita in part to prove their point. One such write-up is given in the link below:

    http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_051125.htm





    In the above write up, the author claims as below:
    "There are clear references in the Bhagavad Gita to how “varna” was determined by (“guna”) qualities and (“karma”) efforts. “In sloka (IV.13) Lord Krishna says: "Chaturvarnyma mayaa sristam gunkarma vibhagsah" i.e. four orders of society created by Me according to their Guna (qualities/behaviour) and Karma (profession/work/efforts). Note that there is no reference to “guna” and “karma” of previous life. "
    The author does not care to read the full Gita, to see that the condition of the birth (any birth for that matter) itself is due to jiva's varna-karma, since varna itself is the veil that hides Brahman and makes Jiva participate in samsara.

    ------------------------


    This thread, originally meant to discuss as to who is fit to study Veda has deviated a lot.

    By going back to the subject, we can arrive at another conclusion. As Shri Krishna says that guna-karma decides birth and varna, there is nothing in Gita to indicate that a particular jiva of a particular varna is prohibited to strive towards attaining any other varna of its choice.

    The whole of Gita is actually an exhortation to us, irrrespective of our varna, to strive towards sattwa guna and then renunciate sattwa guna also. It is another matter that not all will be able to find juice in Gita/upanishads/Vedas, without some prior preparatory karma.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 13 March 2009 at 07:14 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  6. #96
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    The Epilogue

    And all this is the effect of the veil, called varna that will need removal to reveal the Nirgunam (nistraiguṇo as yajvan ji has already pointed out). All this categorization and its understanding may help harmonized living of the waking state life but is not important in any other state, least in Shushupti and Turya. All these conceptual ideation of Purusha's parts will also need total washing away, since Purusha has no part.

    Rig Veda clearly says that they imparted all these attributes to Purusha; they cut away purusha in parts, they created many types of jantus (animals).


    It is the ultimate knowledge that Purusha has no such division but the divisions are attributed to Purusha by THEM (by the sense functions).


    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #97
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    hari o
    ~~~~~~


    Namaste,

    We have talked about who can learn the veda-s. The original intent was the uplifting story of Satyakāma ( one who desires Truth)
    that is found in the Chāndogya Upaniṣad.

    Yet over time the conversation gravitated to vara¹ ; no matter as some very good conversations manifested from the sharing of
    opinions, facts and śāstra references.

    I thought to wait to post this, as to not throw more fuel on the fire, but offer it as a perspective only . Many know the following story and
    the great teaching that is contained within it.

    During Ādi Śaṅkara's stay in Kāśī , the tale is told of his encounter with one cāṇdāla (outcast). As he and his disciples were walking down a narrow lane of the city, they encountered the cāṇdāla . For the social custom of the day it required the cāṇdāla move to one side as to not interfere with the passage of the brahmin's walk. The cāṇdāla was asked to move aside… yet his response to this directive was unexpected. The cāṇdāla voiced the following:
    O' distingushed ascetic, best among the twice-born (dvija&#185, you have established that the Absolute is everywhere. Who then are you asking to move aside? This body, like yours, is built of food, is intert and cannot move on its own. If you are asking the omnipresent, Pure, anuttara ( Supreme) of which I am the apparent manifestation to move from blocking your way, that too is not possible.
    In brief (O'distingushed ascetic) we are the same. Thus, whom are you asking to clear the way for whom?

    Ādi Śaṅkara, recognizing the wisdom of the cāṇdāla's words, immediately bowed and acknowledged the truth that came from this cāṇdāla''s lips.


    praṇām


    words
    • vara वर्ण - class , tribe , order , caste ; outward appearance , exterior , form , figure , shape; color
    • cāṇdāla चाण्डाल - outcaste
    • dvija द्विज- twice born; a man of any one of the first 3 classes e.g. a Brahman re-born through investiture with the sacred thread called upanayana
    • We tend to think of the following 4 fold order (cātur-varṇyaṁ)
      • brahmaṇa-s
      • kṣatriya-s
      • vaiśya-s
      • śudra-s
    some also think of the various stages of life:
      • brahmacarya - student-hood
      • gārhastya - householder
      • vānaprasta - forest dweller ( even with wife)
      • saṁnyāsa - renunciate.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #98

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    During Ādi Śaṅkara's stay in Kāśī , the tale is told of his encounter with one cāṇdāla (outcast). As he and his disciples were walking down a narrow lane of the city, they encountered the cāṇdāla . For the social custom of the day it required the cāṇdāla move to one side as to not interfere with the passage of the brahmin's walk. The cāṇdāla was asked to move aside… yet his response to this directive was unexpected. The cāṇdāla voiced the following:
    O' distingushed ascetic, best among the twice-born (dvija¹), you have established that the Absolute is everywhere. Who then are you asking to move aside? This body, like yours, is built of food, is intert and cannot move on its own. If you are asking the omnipresent, Pure, anuttara ( Supreme) of which I am the apparent manifestation to move from blocking your way, that too is not possible.
    In brief (O'distingushed ascetic) we are the same. Thus, whom are you asking to clear the way for whom?


    Pranam,

    I nice story. I have wondered often that even after Lord Krishna extolls a yogi to whom a brahmana, cow, and a dog eating sudra are same, why still some people, citing him, validate the caste equations. I understand when sages speak of varna differences as a natural rule of nature that has to do with difference of functions rather than higher and lower. But most of us, I suppose, must be opposing or supporting the varna (or caste) from states of ego. I suppose, that even those who oppose it, however, practise it in some form or other -- for example the difference between Class I and Class IV servants.

  9. #99
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Namaste Friends

    The Asiya Vamiya Sukta does not stop to throw out pickles. Every now and then a line gives a new light as if.

    1.164. 39 The rks exist in the imperishable, beyond vyoman (space) where all gods abide.He who does not know the Imperishable, what can he accomplish with the hymn? Those alone who know it sit collected.

    It is important to know the abode of the Hymn.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  10. #100

    Exclamation Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    om namah sivaya
    This is about the story of Satyakama. Is there some explanation about how can agni or diver bird actually speak to Satyakama? May be he understands the language of animals and birds but how could agni speak to him.
    with pranams
    anand

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