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Thread: Feeling confused

  1. #11
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    Re: Feeling confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Heppu View Post

    Eastern Mind:

    This seems to be a hard thing to do as a Finnish guy. There hasn't been much translated to Finnish. Some Prabhupada's books, yes, but I don't like them that much. Haha. Do you have any recommendations? Sources for information?
    Vannakkam: It seems to me your English is fine, but I could be wrong. Some people are just more comfortable with a mother tongue, although they're great communicators in other languages.

    Personally, I'm a Saiva Siddhantin, and follow the teachings of Subramuniyaswam as espoused on the Himalayan Academy educational site. There is a free on-line correspondence course connected to it. That's just an example, though. There are many other Guru-based groups, like BAPS, Amma, the Sai Centers, and some European ashrams. Hinduism is more than Vedanta and ISKCON, although they're both wonderful schools as well.

    Are there any temples in Finland, for example?

    Aum Namasivaya

  2. #12

    Re: Feeling confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam:
    Personally, I'm a Saiva Siddhantin, and follow the teachings of Subramuniyaswam as espoused on the Himalayan Academy educational site. There is a free on-line correspondence course connected to it. That's just an example, though..
    I'm glad to see you actually replied with a recommendation! Thank you for that! Shiva is an entity much respected by my friend who introduced me to Hinduism. That's why Shiva used to be pretty close to me also. I googled Subramuniyaswami and the guy seemed to be an appreciated and loved man. He looked sweet too! Haha. I'll definitely do some more research on the philosophy too.

    Are there any temples in Finland, for example?

    Unfortunately not. The only link we have to Hinduism in Finland is ISKCON. Hardly any Finnish people know anything about other spiritual traditions than Christianity and Islam. Maybe that's one reason why ISKCON seems to attract people here. It has an unique exotic touch in it that cannot be found anywhere else in Finland. Once I chatted with some people from Isha Foundation in a spiritual fair, but when I tried to google them afterwards, I didn't find any signs of activity in Finland. Maybe I talked with ghosts or something...

    Om Namah Shivaya! Thank you for your time!

  3. #13

    Re: Feeling confused

    Namaste Heppu,

    [Please remember this is a personal opinion from a polytheist, let no one take offence of it]

    Quote Originally Posted by Heppu View Post
    This is a funny thing. I met a friend from my childhood few weeks ago. She told me she had found her ''My friend...''-book that she used to have when were at a primary school. I had written to it. In that book, there was a question: ''What is the most useless thing in the world?'' ''Religion schoolbook'' I had answered. This was extremely funny, because my friend knows how interested I am in different religions. I thought my answer tells much about my feelings towards Christian propaganda. Didn't like it as a child, don't like it nowadays either. But what it comes to Christian god, I see it as the one they talk about in all spiritual traditions. They just talk about it with different names. God manifests itself differently to different people. Devas and avatars can be seen as manifestations of one god - Brahman. I didn't make this up, neither did Christians, this is what is taught in Vedas.
    ''Truth is One, but the sages speak of it by many names." (Rig Veda)

    As I told in my previous post, the Hindu world seems to be a fantasy world from atheistic or Buddhist point of view. Buddhist tries to see world as it is, not as it could be. When you watch a tree, a Buddhist sees a tree, a Hindu sees a manifestation of god. That's why it's natural for a Hindu to see the world through his/her imagination. Every time he sees a tree, he thinks of his conseption on god. This thought takes him away from the present moment. A Buddhist sees a tree and enjoys it as a tree. That's a piece of Nirvana right there. Always in the present moment! Advaita is the only Hindu tradition I know, that teaches that the liberation is always in this moment. That, of course, could be because of the lack of my research.


    Devas and avatars are real to me too, but maybe more as aspects of one reality that symbolize different things. For me, I haven't seen a blue guy playing a flute, but I definitely have witnessed the love that Krishna represents. To me, one god is the existence itself. Everything else just manifestations of that oneness.
    It all depends how you define God. I am a polytheist, for me Brahman is a Divine Principle but not a being. I agree that everything comes from Brahman and dissolves in Brahman, but that is all.

    Saying that all Devas and avatars are manifestations of Brahman is a meaningless statement for me. For me, the side-walk, the toilet, the computer, and Adolf Hitler are manifestations of Brahman too. So I do not see the need to stress that Devas are manifestations of Brahman in particular. That only makes sense for a monotheist, which I am not. As each monotheist tradition creates its own image of the supreme God, and this leads to competition and conflict, people find it necessary to say that all Supreme Gods are really the same. If there is only one God, than all One-Gods are the same.

    But I do not believe in a One-God. I do not believe in an All-God that rules the Universe. So Neither do I believe that all One-Gods are the same, nor that Devas are parts/aspects of an all-God. Nor do I believe that Brahman is the Creation, or that the unmanifested is the manifested. Because that is like saying 0=1 or -A = +A. Then you build on a contradiction that kills any logic. Monotheist Religions do that and from that only comes more contradictions that they explain by referring to the base contradiction. I think this only makes things overly complicated and meaningless.

    Besides I think that God as a conscious all-being is a pretty dangerous construct. Because an all-powerful, all-knowing God with a plan is responsible for all suffering. It is a lousy excuse to blame it on us humble creatures for having a free-will. This is again a contradiction, if we have free will than that limits Gods power and he is not all-powerful. A supreme God can not be a good God either, because he represents good and evil. Religions like Judaism and Hinduism recognize that, though they hardly talk about it, as people want to believe God is only good.

    For why would I want to worship a God that is good and bad? I rather worship Gods that represent values to me that uplift me. In the same way that I do not have to be everybody´s friend but I rather seek friends among people who share higher values. So I do not need an all-everything-God even if he exists. By the way he would be so big and far removed that his relationship with me would less warm than between me and one of my atoms.

    I had already experienced that. I was raised a Christian from young age and a fully indoctrinated believer, though I soon started questioning the flawed ethics of our master lord at early age. But I am a rational person. As much as I prayed, it felt like praying to the wall. That was very disappointing as I had felt a spiritual presence from young age.

    When in later life I started praying to Ganesha is was baaang, right the first time. I did not have to do any mental push ups, no endless repetition of Mantras, chanting, whatever. Direct contact. Now if Lord supreme God is both Ganesha and Jesus, I do not see why he could not answer as Jesus. Sure you can always make up some reason, but I don´t buy that.

    I do not pretend that Ganesha is the Supreme God, all of reality, etc., etc. No he is simply the God that is right for me. My buddy. My hearts friend. Like I have some good friends that are right for me too. For me Devas are mostly beings embodying the qualities that are beneficiary for Man. In the same way that the Greek would say that their Gods were Gods of light, while other peoples worshipped much darker Gods. This is logical as many warrior people worship Gods for power, which is a pretty risky quality to revere. I do not think it is coincidence that those worshipping the all-powerful and all-knowing God are often so aggressive. The Gods I worship are noble friends that do me good, they are good company. But most important is that I can actually relate to them, they are part of Nature.

    Saying that everything is one and the same, I do not find a higher insight, but rather a limiting perspective. We do not need God for that. We can say that everything is Energy. Now make peace, we are all energy. I think this oneness and unity thinking is highly overrated. Nor does oneness lead to peace. When they had converted everyone in Europe to the same God is when the religious wars really broke out. Because when everyone has his own distinct Gods, you are more likely to respect other peoples distinctiveness then when you start claiming that your God is universal.

    For me the Vedas represent the time when people were still sane. The Vedas are not about theology but Dharma. It is practical knowledge (science) how to live in harmony with all beings in nature, even our own body (Aryuveda). The Vedas contain many world views not one. You can not just pick a line and say, this the world view of the Vedas. It is only later that philosophers tried to create ¨a theory of everything¨ in Vedanta (end of the Vedas). It was all wrapped up and consolidated in the Gita. People love these monumental mental constructions. Buddhism created its own tower of knowledge. And so did Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. All intellectual master pieces. For me they are worlds of imagination. More real for me is the Sun shining in my eyes and on my skin, the Earth under my feet and the breeze in my hair, not thoughts of oneness.

    I can not help that. I am a practical guy, People can believe all they want for what I care. I only want happiness in the here and now. I do not seek Moksha, Nirvana, heaven, or other outer-worldly experiences. I do not think that was on the mind of the people that wrote the Vedas. I think that is a later development in religion that ruined it. In stead of creating harmony on Earth, this was renounced, and the accent became to acquire perfect happiness in another roam. As life became worse, the accent shifted from maintaining happiness to escape of suffering. I think Religion than became negatively inclined.

    Of all religions Sanatan Dharm is still one of the most optimistic in this respect. Sanatan for instance does not deny the value of material means. It still worships the feminine material side of reality together with the masculine mental side. It is more in balance. But modern Hinduism is also shifting towards monotheism, more towards seeking happiness in the abstract thoughts of perfection. But as long as Sanatan Dharm is based on Dharm there is a small place for people like me. I am a minority, not representative of Hinduism. Please understand that. Take what I write with a grain of salt.

    I think you probably have more scriptural knowledge than me. I could not find the origin of your quote from the Vedas: ''Truth is One, but the sages speak of it by many names.". Did you mean this one from the Hymn Visvedevas:
    ¨They have called him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and the divine fine-winged Garuda; They speak of Indra, Yama, Matrarisvan: the One Being sages call by many names. Rig Veda 1.164.46
    I know this one is about the Visvedevas, the all-gods, which are various Vedic Gods taken together as a group. I interpret it as a gathering of the Gods. Being a polytheist I can see the practical use of this. Though I give special worship to the God most dearest to me, I do not want to leave other Gods out of my worship. So it is more practical to address them as one. To me this is similar as directing to the Lord chairman in the house of parliament to address all members of parliament. And as the Chairman changes, it can also become Lady chairman. I read the gathering of Gods was democratic, different Gods taking the lead in turn. If it were about the One God I would expect the chapter to be named singular Vishedeva rather than the plural Vishedevas. Which is a hymn to all the all-gods rather than the one all-god.

    This was also done in Canaanite tradition before they became monotheistic (Jewish) They had a pantheon of four Gods and Goddesses (Father God, Mother Goddess, Son God and Daughter God) The father God was called El, his son Jahweh. They also had a lot of minor Gods who where referred to combined as Elohim. Elohim meaning ¨the Lords¨, the Noble Ones. When they changed to monotheism they started to use the names El, Jahweh and Elohim as names for their one God. It would have been a bit cumbersome to rewrite all old texts and change the carved names on all statues. It is easier to pretend it refers all to the same God and it creates less protests.

    But my knowledge is superficial at best. Maybe Kalicharan Tuvij or Sudas Paijavana, who have extensive knowledge in matters of the Vedas, will do us the honor of explaining this text.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 17 March 2015 at 10:19 PM.

  4. #14

    Re: Feeling confused

    I enjoyed reading your text. We didn't have to see much in common, but I'm happy for you for finding the path that feels right for you. If it motivates you towards loving and respecting all life and on top of that gives you joy, it seems to be just the right one for you!


    Saying that everything is one and the same, I do not find a higher insight, but rather a limiting perspective. We do not need God for that. We can say that everything is Energy. Now make peace, we are all energy. I think this oneness and unity thinking is highly overrated. Nor does oneness lead to peace.
    This was the part that I really wanted to comment on. All that Brahman is this, Allah is that - talk can be just a matter of viewpoint and playing with terms. But this was an interesting point of view, that maybe we could conversate on. This is also a relevant topic for me. Because what I've learned from the Buddhist world (which was the reason for opening this thread) is that actually we do not need god for all being one. We can of course call it god to help us understand such a huge topic, but it's not necessary. This is the gap that I'm standing on right now.

    But I have to say, I disagree with you on this one. There is a point, actually lots of them, why many developed spiritual traditions teach this oneness-thinking to their disciplines. I'll try to explain the first three ideas that came to my head.

    1. Love and understanding
    Let's start with this one. If we accept that the nature of reality is non-dual, we understand that everything we see around us, everything we feel, everything we are in touch with, is interrelated. They exist as the same oneness. In that type of thinking, we see also each other as part of the Self. You see that by harming others, you are actually harming yourself. By loving and respecting others, you respect yourself. Doing good deeds, you create balance within yourself. When you love God 100%, your love expands to all life and existence around you. When you look in to the eyes of another human being, you see god and feel deep love towards him/her. It helps you respect all life, since everything is manifestation/extension of god towards which you feel the deepest appreciation. Everything becomes sacred. You see the world as a good place to live in wherever you are. It's very practical and very effective. This is the goal of bhakti yoga. Serving the god by serving the whole existence by serving the life around you and inside of you. It is the path and the goal at the same time. Being one with the all-present.


    2. Reality of our nature
    Big Bang/creation happened and it's still going on. What were you before you as your physical body were born? When you realize that you have always expressed that process, not just as the person you know, you understand that there is nothing to fear. You have always existed and will always exist. As the whole. As the oneness. Or as a part of the whole. ''Take away the whole from the whole and the whole remains''.

    When one dies, one still doesn't get out of the whole. The energy takes a new form. It is rational and at the same time very relieving. When a cloud ''dies'', it spreads around and the water molecyles take a new form or join into other water phenomenons. The cloud can bee seen in the rain or in a lake. It hasn't gone away. It's still part of the whole.

    It is rational and scientific. The atoms in your body are the same ones that have always been here. Part of the universe. The parts of the universe evolve, but the universe itself, the field on which everything happens, always remains the same. Quantum field theory also hits the like button to this idea. Everything is quantum field, rises from the quantum field, as a quantum field. Nothing's separate.

    3. Feelings of safety
    Even if one doesn't like to think in theoretical ways, one can always have feelings of safety by reminding him-/herself that all is one. It can help by giving feelings of safety and more faith to humanity, understanding of different opinions and giving perspective to life.

    I would like to introduce you to a Finnish term ''maailmankaikkeus''. Maailma = world, kaikkeus = everything, whole. We use this instead of ''universe''. I like it a lot because it is possible that there are many universes. In that case, maailmankaikkeus includes all of the universes. Even if there are infinite number of them. Haha. All of them are still Brahman.

  5. #15

    Re: Feeling confused

    Oh... Again I forgot something but can't edit my posts since I'm a new user and the moderators have to accept all of my posts.

    The reason for conflicts lies in our beliefs about separateness. Me vs. you, us vs. them. Separateness allows our ego to work in the ways it does. It is afraid of being ''wrong'', it judges, makes false statements about you and others and causes hate and greed through fear. When we understand the non-dual nature of our universe, when we understand oneness, we also start to understand our emotions and the action of our ego minds in a new way. We start to have deep understanding on life itself. This is how it works and this is how it's supposed to work. All in one. Others feel these things too and are going through the same stuff that I am. Deep down we are one, and I don't want to judge them anymore.

  6. #16
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    Re: Feeling confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Heppu View Post
    Namaskar, LightOfOm, and thank you for your post!
    I've read some of the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and watched videos of H.W.L. Pooja and Mooji. All of these teachers have been called messengers of neo-advaita. Their philosophy seems to be closely related to Eckhart Tolle's techings. I have no knowledge of the original Advaita Vedanta. Would you like to recommend something? I've tried to do some research on that, but haven't gotten far by now...
    Namaskar Heppu,

    Please look into Adi Shankaracharya's bhashyas on the Prasthanatrayi (three canonical texts of Hinduism consisting of Upanishads, Brahma Sutras and Bhagavad Gita). These will give you a good starting point.

    Principal Upanishads with Shankara Bhashya, - English Translation - 5 Volumes: http://hinduebooks.blogspot.com/2010...-shankara.html

    Brahma Sutras according to Shankara: http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/Br...English%5D.pdf

    The Bhagavad Gita with the commentary of Sri Shankaracharya: https://archive.org/details/bhagavadgitawith00maharich

    Also, look into the works of Swami Vivekananda; if you do a simple Google search on him you will find a plethora of material.

    I like what Eastern Mind said about Himalayan Academy as well. They have some outstanding literature on their website. Look up the books 'Dancing with Siva', 'Living with Siva' and 'Merging with Siva'. These books are golden.

    Here is a link to them: https://www.himalayanacademy.com/liv...ent/mc-options

    As far as finding things in Finnish, I am not sure I can help you there. It seems like your English is pretty good though, so hopefully these links will be good for you.

    I wish you all the best in your spiritual endeavors,
    LightofOm
    ॐ मृत्युंजयाय रुद्राय नीलकण्ठाय शम्भवे l
    अमृतेशाय शर्वाय महादेवाय ते नम: ll

    Sanātana Dharma Worldwide

  7. #17

    Re: Feeling confused

    Namaste Avyaydya,

    Deva-s are, to me, as much divine principles as Brahman is; so I see Brahman as just another deva. And, Sat is not Brahman but is simply the state of affairs when all Devata-s communicate with each other.
    In all these years I have never met with anything in Sruti or Smriti that goes against this. In fact, texts are very clear when emphasising that Asat is the natural state of affairs, and is therefore more original - and hence comes before - Sat.Please note that Sat doesn't mean Satya i.e. truth, and similarly Asat doesn't mean Asatya i.e. untruth; because as such, Sat and Asat are states - and what we know as Satya (truth) is always an output, result, of Sat; similarly Asatya is the result of Asat.
    Asat employs all vocabulary and glitter on avail in order to flaunt its power, acceptability. The problem is, people are naturally born into it. Asat is the natural religion.
    Now, if someone says to you, "look bro, everything is One - now what is your problem?"
    ****

    Still, the good thing with Vedanta is that it is a de facto gateway for many to Hinduism. So even though its language is that of binary worldview and exclusive duality (even Advaita is a dual ideology as it has - Brahman vs. Maya), still many who mature into Hinduism are found to be basing themselves more in simple Devata worship.
    I suppose early twenties is the right place for getting acclimatised with Vedantic paradigm - if at all - and the late twenties are the phase for some real action, getting to know Devata-s. I've found that those who pass this later phase without bumps are likely beyond return and thus continue ever more blindly with ideology A or B.
    Rare are those who from the very start come along the way of what we call as, "The Village Hindu".
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  8. #18
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    Re: Feeling confused

    Namaste Light of Om ji,

    Thank you so much for sharing these great links! There is a problem with one, however.
    Quote Originally Posted by LightofOm View Post
    Brahma Sutras according to Shankara: http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/Br...English%5D.pdf
    It seems http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/ is down, according to 'Up or Down' it's down for a wide area of the web. It has been for some time, so I am not sure if it's coming back up. Could you recommend another link, or if you have the pdf is there a way you might be able to share it?

    Thank you again.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  9. #19
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    Re: Feeling confused

    Namaskar Aanandinii,

    That link was working fine just a few days ago, I guess something must have happened...

    Try this one: http://www.omjai.org/Brahma%20Sutras...0Sankaracharya

    And don't forget to explore the omjai website even further if you haven't already. It is a great site.

    Pranam.

    LightofOm
    ॐ मृत्युंजयाय रुद्राय नीलकण्ठाय शम्भवे l
    अमृतेशाय शर्वाय महादेवाय ते नम: ll

    Sanātana Dharma Worldwide

  10. #20
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    Re: Feeling confused

    Namaskar Light of Om Ji,
    Quote Originally Posted by LightofOm View Post
    Namaskar Aanandinii,

    That link was working fine just a few days ago, I guess something must have happened...

    Try this one: http://www.omjai.org/Brahma%20Sutras...0Sankaracharya

    And don't forget to explore the omjai website even further if you haven't already. It is a great site.

    Pranam.

    LightofOm
    Thank you, I'll bookmark it when I get home! =)

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

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