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Thread: Bhakti worship is not right for me

  1. #31

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste Aanandinii,

    I need to clarify my position in this search. I know what I believe in, but I haven't found a match in looking at the different schools and sampradāyas so far. It's not that I'm lost, and I'm looking for something that I COULD accept if I give in or bend some things about myself. That would not work for me. It's got to be a match. I know these things:

    Advaita is not-two.
    Vedānta is purpose or end-goal of the Vedas.
    The wide-ranging definition of monism is that everything eventually goes back to the source it came from.
    Animism is the belief that everything around me possesses either a soul or some form of energy (poor choice of words to describe what I see, what I feel).
    Whoever or whatever created all this is formless, with no name.

    Let's look at animism more closely. It is defined as follows: Animism is used in the anthropology of religion as a term for the belief system of some indigenous tribal peoples,[5] especially prior to the development of organized religion.

    Now... What existed before THAT belief system of the tribal peoples, in their history in the remote past? THAT is where I come from.

    The didgeridoo thing - that is something I do every single day, throughout the day. For some reason, I'm drawn to play several times a day. I feel like if I do it, I will eventually come to something that is beyond me at the moment. You must remember that when my mother had major surgery while carrying me, there's a possibility that the general anesthesia put something in my brain to sleep, in addition to my hearing. See, my hearing is like being half asleep or not fully aware. Imagine when you are talking with someone, and you hear someone else talking to someone else nearby. You know the voice is there, but you can't make it out because you're focused on your conversation. Now, take that semi-aware state of hearing, and that's what it sounds like to me, only I'm listening to it with my full attention. Like my hearing is half asleep. Like I can't fully wake it up. I would imagine the same thing has happened in other parts of my brain, because I do not see what other people see, only a vague sense that there's something going on, like amnesia. I've been trying to remember what it is (beyond this physical life??) my whole life.

    I notice that I have genuine feelings of animism. I worked on a farm last summer. I felt bad about pulling weeds and invasive plants in crop beds. I felt bad about pulling dying/old crops when it was time to return them to the soil in composting. I even misled my manager when he spotted a squirrel and asked me to watch him while he went to get his gun. Once he was out of sight, I hurriedly got the squirrel out of the area in one direction, and I led the returning manager in another direction, claiming I saw the squirrel bound off in the other direction. I actually felt terrified for the squirrel's safety and felt very compelled to get him to safety.

    I would genuinely feel appreciation to the travel trailer for housing me, my Jeep for getting me where I needed to be safely. I would pat them with my hand in appreciation and say, "Thank you for..." Any bug in the house, I will pick it up and carry it outside. Naturally, I developed attachments to stuffed animals as though they were my children, with spirits who can travel anywhere, play with any animals within a range. When it was time to say goodbye to broken/worn things, especially cars, I would take a moment to acknowledge its history with me, pat it, and initiate the process of reclaiming this spiritual essence from this thing back into myself, so that now this essence was no longer a car; it could now experience through me driving a car and know what it was like when I was driving it. When I did that, that sad feeling of saying goodbye was no longer there, because the essence was now within me. It was just a car, made of human-made pieces put together. I've experienced this five years ago. My old car gave out on a major trip, and I ended up driving back in a new-to-me car. A year later, I discovered major problems, so I traded it off for another car, my Jeep. Each time I did this, I would reclaim that essence, and transfer it to another car, and do it again 'til I got to my Jeep. The last time was much easier once I learned to reclaim that essence so that it is always with me. I can feel it when I do this. I freak out sometimes when I drop something through the floors of old buildings and I can't retrieve it, like I'm leaving behind something. It has become very strong in me.

    I like many things in SD, but I suspect that I function inside at a level of a Sanātani of many thousands of years ago, long before the Vedas were revealed.
    Last edited by deafAncient; 12 March 2015 at 10:27 AM.

  2. #32
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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste.,

    First of all, that message was not directed to you and most of the content was very general in nature. If anything went to specific, please pardon me and there was no such intend to insult or name call anyone. "IDIOT" is not a deregotary when you have to address a "stupid' person as that - please understand the context and take it in the light sense. Thank you.

    Second, its not you who made statements about Sampradya teaching but a subject matter of this thread has many statements and hatred uninformed matters and that was what was addressed. But if you know about sampradaya and its philosophy well, there is nothing wrong if you want to have the discussion with out prejudice. Competing argument and alternative views may enhance your personal faith and validate your experience - if at all you are interested. If you are fully satisfied with your experience, my statements here should not affect you emotionally or any part of your conviction and faith and i hope we can agree to disagree same time agree to also debate.

    A wrong beginning is disaster but you can try again if you are lucky. If you are or anyone'e message does not translate to the points i captured, not sure where is the discomfort or disagreement. I am not and never said, you do not have the association God, or reflection of the God in you and in fact, we will never say that. I also made a point that, there are many paths and most of them are progressive but not final. This should be seen with a positive note of possibilities rather than mere subject to argue with out understanding.

    Just a note to one of your assumption.... Advaita is not a singular philosophy and many times i give up on arguments or discussion here either because the one with whom i argue do have a different "advaitic" background than the ones i know of or they themselves do not have any answers rather go around in circles with out giving any convincing answer. Again, not saying this to pose like i am doctorate and authority rather stating that, i am not total ignorant of the popular school of thought. If you have faith and conviction, i am not the one to stop you or even ask you to stop but this is surely a discussion board and if my question does not trigger any answer, may be you should find it for yourself or present here what you may already know.

    But, it is disrespectful to criticize personalities and follower-ship with out substance or with no understanding in the HDF board and call a Krshna Bhakth as some cheater, looter, sinner etc. because someone under the guide did that. As much as you expect sweet and sincere words which i believe i am attempting to my best to present here, the communication in this forum should carry that sense and intend of honor and respect for your yet to be learned system of thought. Thats not spiritual but basic human necessity of being civil. You is not point to you but "You" in third class as anyone who are 'participating' or promoting messages in this forum and again nothing personal please.

    Hare Krshna

  3. #33

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Here is a piece of the puzzle...

    http://sacredsites.com/asia/india/an...c_shrines.html

    Edit:

    http://www.dharmaramjournals.in/Arti...ls.aspx?AID=44

    Another thing - "After a lengthy period of disinterest, post-modern anthropologists are increasingly engaging with the concept of animism. Modernism is characterized by a Cartesian subject-object dualism that divides the subjective from the objective, and culture from nature; in this view, Animism is the inverse of scientism, and hence inherently invalid." I don't know if I straddle the border between the two, and can go into either one, or if I'm more in the animist category than in the Cartesian category. I do recall in the Deaf Years that I was not aware of an anthropomorphic "other" in inanimate objects and possibly non-animal living matter. I have always felt as though (though a poor attempt with language here) it is a part of me and yet I am a part of it, but with no concept that there is "I" and an "it."
    Last edited by deafAncient; 11 March 2015 at 11:29 AM.

  4. #34

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Namaste.,

    But, it is disrespectful to criticize personalities and follower-ship with out substance or with no understanding in the HDF board and call a Krshna Bhakth as some cheater, looter, sinner etc. because someone under the guide did that. As much as you expect sweet and sincere words which i believe i am attempting to my best to present here, the communication in this forum should carry that sense and intend of honor and respect for your yet to be learned system of thought. Thats not spiritual but basic human necessity of being civil. You is not point to you but "You" in third class as anyone who are 'participating' or promoting messages in this forum and again nothing personal please.

    Hare Krshna

    Namaste
    Isnt it impartial when you call a person who denigrates krishna bhakths (who actually leech off others of their money) a "total idiot" just because the self proclaimed "krishna bhakths" belong to a parampara? Yet you are ok with krishna bhakths denigrating advaita? If i am a total idiot my friend,by your own logic, the people who told the thread creator that advaitins go through hell/rebirths, are the worst among the total idiots,because, advaita is also a parampara, just incase your love for a particular cult clouded your commonsense.
    I never denigrated krishna bhakths and i was focussed on those particular thugs who denigrate advaita just because its philosophy is too heavy for their small heads. Like a kindergarten kid who thinks he knows everything just because he is in a school, it is indeed very common for small minds to think they are the best just because they have the hand of some self created parampara system on their heads.
    And one final question. Are you saying a parampara is immune to discretion and you cannot address issues in any of its members and its members are above jurisdiction?
    If hate is what you have to offer, may the real krishna bless you with gita.
    And i would rather go by krishnas definition of his bhakta than some fanatic idea of who He really is.

    Adios

  5. #35
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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by deafAncient View Post
    My Mom told me years ago that when I was born, I was already able to see and visually track the birthing/delivery people in the hospital room I was born in. It freaked my Mom out because she had never seen it before.
    A person born with eyes wide open has and will always see things differently, because the general population is born with eyes closed and they open them ever so slightly lest they gain the unwanted knowledge that they cannot comprehend. All our banter must sound like parroting from conditioned souls about mundane things rather than anything spiritual based on actual realizations. It is hard to be in your shoes to even understand the layer that you do, much less feel/experience it.

    Pranam.

  6. #36

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste to all,

    I'm reading through the Bhakti Yoga book recommended to me here in this thread.

    I came across the term paramahaṃsa. Does anyone think that I'm somewhere in there, towards the base level somewhere? In other words, I have the awareness of something that is formless because that is what I sense.

  7. #37

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Update: I finished the book last night, and I'm not quite sure I want to follow the approach in this book. I get the feeling that this is geared for a western audience (because there is wording in there common with Christianity, making it more palatable for them). Consider this article:

    "Quite often, I find that certain public perception about Advaita is very different from its original spirit. And in the context of 'difference', there seems to be a perception of conflict between the notion of 'difference' and Advaita. But,if one were to dig deep and understand Advaita in an authentic way (studying authentic texts in a classical way under an Acharya's guidance and reinforcing the understanding through study of other texts such as Yoga Shasthra, Sankhya etc.), one would find that there is no conflict between the notion of 'difference' and the spirit of Advaita." I am attempting to bring this out in two independent postings - one on lessons from Acharya's life and the other on essence of Advaita philosophy itself and this posting is about the former.

    ...

    "The public perception about Advaita of dismissing the world and worldly affairs as an illusion breeds its offspring's such as -

    1. Laxity in worldly duties (escapism)
    2. A false ego bordering on megalo-mania that I am already great (Aham brahmasmi)
    3. Everything is same; everything is Brahma(Sarvam Brahmamayam); no difference in other words;
    This perception is perhaps a result of degeneration of the Jnana marga (the path of self-enquiry) into an intellectual drudgery and needs to be corrected. In his short life-span of 32 years, the Acharya has made immense contributions in multiple fronts that include -

    1. Reinforcing the understanding of the vedic school of thought by writing commentaries on prasthana thraya (Upanishads, Brahma sutra and Bhagavad Gita).
    2. Establishing his school of thought through arguments to diminish the influence of antithetic schools of thought and in turn establishing vedic way of life.
    3. Established Peethas to guide the society to foster Adhyayana of veda, vedanga and shasthras as well as develop Tapasya.
    The above contributions are widely known. But, his other contributions that are less noticed but are equally important are
    4. Establishing many paths of yoga. Many yoga schools today including famous ones such as Art of Living, Mahesh Yogi's Tanscendental Meditation claim lineage to Shankaracharya.
    5. Established new hallmark temples and renovated many old temples. Rejuvenated temple worship practice.
    6. Composed innumerable stotras in praise of various devathas and fostered Bhakthi. One has to listen to rendering of these stotras (by say, MS Subbulakshmi) to fully appreciate their beauty, technicality and richness.

    These contributions imply that Adi Shankaracharya Took THIS WORLD seriously. He did not have anything to gain materially or spiritually as he was a Sanyasi and was already enlightened and yet he did so much work. He was never lost in his spiritual experiences alone (It is not wrong for yogis to be unto themselves!! The Acharya could simply have been blissful and stayed in Akarma; but he did not do so and instead worked hard) and never rejected the world or relinquish duties. Instead, he could strike a good balance between his spiritual side and worldly work and pursued his work with zest and diligence. He fought relentlessly for restoration of Vedic way of life and succeeded. He was the very opposite of escapism."

    This is what I speak of. If there is no one to defend SD and all the leaders go off to live in isolation, then civilization in that state is ripe for a takeover.
    Last edited by deafAncient; 27 April 2015 at 03:56 AM.

  8. #38
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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste deafAncient,

    I am confused where you see threads of Abrahamic influence here? Would you be willing to clarify through specific quotes?

    The problem with translating any work not only from one language to another but also from one culture to another is that some words, concepts and ideas don't translate well, or sometimes at all. You must be familiar with this, having to translate often yourself. Words must be used that defines similar concepts, and then redefined for the audience so they may better grasp the concept the term is being used to describe. It's not that the ideas are being changed by the culture they are being introduced to, at least not by those who are sincere. Perhaps in this case this is what you're seeing?

    To your earlier question, I don't think anyone can tell you what you are but you. Even a true Satguru would most likely tell you that is something you must find yourself.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  9. #39

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post
    Namaste deafAncient,

    I am confused where you see threads of Abrahamic influence here? Would you be willing to clarify through specific quotes?

    I am confused, too. Where did I say that? Show me, and then I could try to correct/clarify myself.

  10. #40
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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste,
    Quote Originally Posted by deafAncient View Post
    I am confused, too. Where did I say that? Show me, and then I could try to correct/clarify myself.
    Apologies for the delay in my reply.
    I get the feeling that this is geared for a western audience (because there is wording in there common with Christianity, making it more palatable for them).
    What I am saying is that there are indeed words there that are in common with Christianity because of a few reasons, the primary one is that it is in English, so it is indeed written for primarily Western audience, that of Western Hindus who can't read Indian languages or Sanskrit - or at least not easily. This could be the children of immigrants to a Western country, or it could be someone like me. The key is who it is that's doing the writing. I just skimmed through the thread to see if I could find the book recommended to you, but I can't. However if it was recommended by one of the very learned people here who responded earlier, then the Author is likely a good and generally accepted one.

    Having re-read your post as well, I see the concern you mention at the bottom. Did I misread you and this was your concern? Sanyassins possibly preferring to live as Hermits than as Cenobites or Monks? Apologies for adding to any confusion.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

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