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Thread: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

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    Re: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

    Namaste Amrut Ji,

    You have provided lot of excellent material for me to study.Thanks.

    I read the Chaturbuja Vishnu Vs Para-Brahman Vishnu link.Although,I did not understand some parts, some arguments were quite convincing.I have few doubts and I'll ask them after reading the article once again.

    I thought I'll go through one link at a time and in case I get any queries post them.But I feel it is better that I post questions only after completing all the links as I may find answers to my questions in the other links.I need time to go through the pages.

    I read the Siksha Patri some months ago in one of my relatives house.It is a very good manual and every Hindu must have it.I am already following some of the advice given in it and in fact it helped me to lessen sectarian thoughts I previously had.It helped me a lot and it is a good system.I heard that the Uddava Sampradaya follows Sri Vishnu Panchayatana System.The only thing I do not like about their tradition is that they install Murtis of men beside Sriman Narayana,it is not easy for me to digest human beings worshipped on par with Vedic Devatas but anyways it is up to individuals of Uddava Sampradaya as to how they wish to worship.I respect their right to do whatever pleases them.

    So,I'll be back after studying the literature at hand.

    One small question,what is the difference between Karma kanda and Upasana Kanda?

    You have connected the Asramas and parts of the Vedas.Isn't Bala Sanyasa(taking Sanyasa as a Brahmacharin) not in tune with the Ashrama Dharma and cause violation?Or do the the Vedas allow renunciation directly?

    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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    Re: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram116040 View Post
    Namaste Amrut Ji,

    You have provided lot of excellent material for me to study.Thanks.



    I read the Chaturbuja Vishnu Vs Para-Brahman Vishnu link.Although,I did not understand some parts, some arguments were quite convincing.I have few doubts and I'll ask them after reading the article once again.

    I thought I'll go through one link at a time and in case I get any queries post them.But I feel it is better that I post questions only after completing all the links as I may find answers to my questions in the other links.I need time to go through the pages.


    Namaste Ram ji,

    No problem.


    I read the Siksha Patri some months ago in one of my relatives house.It is a very good manual and every Hindu must have it.I am already following some of the advice given in it and in fact it helped me to lessen sectarian thoughts I previously had.It helped me a lot and it is a good system.I heard that the Uddava Sampradaya follows Sri Vishnu Panchayatana System.The only thing I do not like about their tradition is that they install Murtis of men beside Sriman Narayana,it is not easy for me to digest human beings worshipped on par with Vedic Devatas but anyways it is up to individuals of Uddava Sampradaya as to how they wish to worship.I respect their right to do whatever pleases them.
    Bhagavan Swami Narayana didnt asked them to worship Him but to worship Krishna. Still we can understand that they worship his idol. But later as time passed, there where splits in sampradaya-s and than Saints used to be worshipped, so much so that they have an Idol of a saint Pramukh Swamy who is still in his physical body.

    One small question,what is the difference between Karma kanda and Upasana Kanda?
    Karma Kanda, as I understand is vedic yajnas, and other rites. But we take social service, service to saints also as karma kanda. Hence temple worship technically comes under Karma Kanda. Basically it is related with external process (kriyas)

    Upasana Kanda is worship of deity mentally. Japa is the core of upasana kanda. Here you take support of a form of God and also meditate on it.

    One can also gaze on the idol, the whole body or on a particular part like feet or as Bhagavat Purana says on the face (as face has all 5 senses).

    Later you begin to experience God inside you, in your heart. Later the form disappear and you begin to experience the Lord as an Antaryamin, as sutratma (as experienced by Shrigeri Paramacharya Sri Abhinav Vidyateertha Mahaswami).

    You have connected the Asramas and parts of the Vedas.Isn't Bala Sanyasa(taking Sanyasa as a Brahmacharin) not in tune with the Ashrama Dharma and cause violation?Or do the the Vedas allow renunciation directly?
    Ashrama dharma can be skipped for an exceptional case. Exception is not a rule.

    A standard custom is setup, as a certain level of practice for a particular time is expected to purify internally. Most people even after years of practice cannot attain or retain the level of inner purity and hence they are not shifted to higher ashram and they keep doing karma till they die. It is not good to pressurize one to practice vairagya or austerities that is beyond his capability.

    But for Yog-brahsta who say crossed 70 miles out of 100 miles and then die are reborn with inner purity attained in previous life. Only a little brush-up is needed, a small spark and one comes back on the path and continues from where s/he had left. Their spiritual progress is faster and by little meditation they reach high states of consciousness and gain better clarity by listening once or a few times. (Past life / lives are important).

    Varna Dharma is the better suited, but for those exceptional cases, it can be skipped and one can override normal customs to give knowledge and diksha even to a shudra or an outcaste and make him rise above varnas.

    Brahmacharis are of two types

    1. Temporary upto the completion of their study
    2. Pemanent i.e. they live renunciates throughout life and never return back home.

    Hence 8 year old boy is married before he is send to gurukul. (It is called as Brahma Vivah, one of the 8 types of marriages. Hence it is not compulsory, as we have other 7 options ). Later after completing his studies with vow of celibacy (until he completes his study) returns home and the bride is invited to his in-laws house.

    Once you know that this guy is your husband / wife, then your mind will not seek another one. But you are allowed to live together only after attaining puberty which one obviously attains after 12-16 years of study.

    If we let loose all the rules like varna is not by birth than all will try to hit to jackpot. All will go for that which is the best, which is currently happening. Students go for any stream in engg. If you like Comp Science, but you didnt get enough grades, you choose another like say Mech Engg. Money is imp and is in center of our lives. Hence we take job that earns us more money, be it not be of our liking.

    Rules, etc helps organize things and keep a check on others. Even sudras are intellegent, but it is inner purity, the mental purity that is imp in spirituality and who will judge this inner purity. So to safe guard knowledge, certain rules are made.

    Today's education does not take into account nature of a person. Suppose I get 95 %, but my mind is destructive and you get 90 % but your mind is constructive, who will get admission first? Are you getting it?

    First our nadis are to be cleaned. Later one can activate kundalini. If kundalini is activated somehow and one is not pure and nadis are not cleansed and opened, then it will be very harmful and even dangerous one can even loose mental balance in extreme case. So there should be one who can peep into us and know our purity. Such a person is capable of rising your above varnas and normal customs.

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

    Namaste,

    Thanks for the answers.From the links it is understood that in Advaita Vedanta, Bhakti can be the base and path to the destination.

    But can Bhakti on Saguna Brahman/forms alone cause moksha?
    Is liberation granted by the Saguna forms of Brahman(wherein the devotee reaches a particular loka of the Devata)?
    If yes, is this liberation from samsara granted by the Devatas different from the Advaita-moksha-realisation?
    If no,what is the nature of the liberation given by the Devatas or the obtaining/reaching realms of great Gods(such as Sri Vaikuntam & Sri Kailasa/Shivaloka etc.) according to Advaita Vedanta?And how is it different?

  4. #14

    Re: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

    Namaskara

    Great questions. I myself am born into a kannada smartha family and wondered a lot of these things. Balaji, Narasimha, Rama, Krishna, Lakshmi, and Ganesha were the primary dieties I remember in my household growing up. My fathers side of the family are devotees of Sai Baba as well, but that never felt right to me for some reason.

    I am personally more attracted to vaishnavism as a philosophy but I really don't know how to go about pursuing that other than reading Gita and Bhagavatam.

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    Re: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post
    Namaste,

    Thanks for the answers.From the links it is understood that in Advaita Vedanta, Bhakti can be the base and path to the destination.

    But can Bhakti on Saguna Brahman/forms alone cause moksha?
    Namaste,

    Such devotee will reach respective adobe or if on path of karma then in brahmaloka. At the time of destruction, they will merge into nirguNa brahman. During their stay and during merger with brahman, they will not experience any pain.

    In brahmaloka, it is said that Lord brahmadeva will himself initiate each one living in brahmaloka, the highest of all adobes and during dissolution, one will merge into brahman. Such high soul will be free from pleasure and pain in brahmaloka. The soul will experience intense bliss and will finally merge into nirguNa brahman without any pain during disolution.

    Is liberation granted by the Saguna forms of Brahman(wherein the devotee reaches a particular loka of the Devata)?
    Whenever it is said that a form of Lord grants moksha, it is to be understood than that form of God is not just a vignaharta or a deity of preservation, but the most nearest form of brahman, who is always rooted in brahman. ISvara is not bound by mAyA and so rAma and kruShNa and Siva can grant moksha and raise us to nirguNa brahman, which is their original nature. For sake of communication, it assumes a form for devotee who is in duality.

    If yes, is this liberation from samsara granted by the Devatas different from the Advaita-moksha-realisation?
    From advaita POV, they are same. After abiding in samAdhi, there is no form of God, no mAyA, no samsAra, no duality, but for the sake of devotees, Isvara can pull you down, generate pseudo ego for sustaining individuality, which is must needed to sustain body, which is needed to guide people to moksha.

    If no,what is the nature of the liberation given by the Devatas or the obtaining/reaching realms of great Gods(such as Sri Vaikuntam & Sri Kailasa/Shivaloka etc.) according to Advaita Vedanta?And how is it different?
    For a devotee who prefers to be in duality, he gets vaikuntha, or respected adobe. If a devotee leaves everything to God and stays neutral, then that form of God himself will direct the devotee from duality to non-duality.

    According to advaita, moksha is of non-dual nature. There cannot be different kinds of moksha, though ways to reach may be many. Final destination can be only one.

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrut View Post
    Namaste,

    Such devotee will reach respective adobe or if on path of karma then in brahmaloka. At the time of destruction, they will merge into nirguNa brahman. During their stay and during merger with brahman, they will not experience any pain.

    In brahmaloka, it is said that Lord brahmadeva will himself initiate each one living in brahmaloka, the highest of all adobes and during dissolution, one will merge into brahman. Such high soul will be free from pleasure and pain in brahmaloka. The soul will experience intense bliss and will finally merge into nirguNa brahman without any pain during disolution.
    Namaste Ji,

    I have some doubts,if they seem foolish kindly forgive me as I have not read about these things before.

    I heard that every soul will attain moksha at some or other point of time.According to what you say,some souls may not attain moksha before dissolution.
    1.What would happen to souls that have not realized non-duality or have not attained any Loka?
    2.Do they experience pain at dissolution time,why and of what kind?I heard the soul feels neither pleasure nor pain,what does this mean?

    3.What happens to souls that merge into Brahman?
    Do these liberated souls cease to exist?
    If no,are they created(in unpolished language-recycled) again and are supposed to go through all samsara once again until next dissolution?
    4.Is there any number for the souls created by Brahman?

    5.I have read that different lokas are the ultimate but why would say that Brahma Deva's Loka is the highest?

    Whenever it is said that a form of Lord grants moksha, it is to be understood than that form of God is not just a vignaharta or a deity of preservation, but the most nearest form of brahman, who is always rooted in brahman. ISvara is not bound by mAyA and so rAma and kruShNa and Siva can grant moksha and raise us to nirguNa brahman, which is their original nature. For sake of communication, it assumes a form for devotee who is in duality.
    But I heard that in some Devalokas when the Punya balance is enjoyed or completed,the soul takes birth somewhere else.
    This is confusing Ji,how do we know in which Devata's Loka the stay is fixed till dissolution and in which Devatas loka the soul has to enter a new body elsewhere after the Punya is exhausted?
    Can all deities grant full moksha which is different from staying in a Loka or only the Panchayatana Devatas can?

    For a devotee who prefers to be in duality, he gets vaikuntha, or respected adobe. If a devotee leaves everything to God and stays neutral, then that form of God himself will direct the devotee from duality to non-duality.

    According to advaita, moksha is of non-dual nature. There cannot be different kinds of moksha, though ways to reach may be many. Final destination can be only one.
    So,the dualistic devotee needs to learn something more i.e. realise non-duality.In essence that dualistic soul has attained a very high position but is not totally liberated from Advaita POV,am I right?
    Last edited by Ram11; 07 December 2014 at 06:07 AM. Reason: small error correction

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    Re: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

    Quote Originally Posted by SKR108 View Post
    Namaskara

    Great questions. I myself am born into a kannada smartha family and wondered a lot of these things. Balaji, Narasimha, Rama, Krishna, Lakshmi, and Ganesha were the primary dieties I remember in my household growing up. My fathers side of the family are devotees of Sai Baba as well, but that never felt right to me for some reason.

    I am personally more attracted to vaishnavism as a philosophy but I really don't know how to go about pursuing that other than reading Gita and Bhagavatam.
    Namaste Ji,

    Nice to know about you.
    I think this freedom to choose the Ishta-Devata is a beautiful feature of Sanatana Dharma.

    Also,I have observed that nowadays most people are no longer overtly sectarian.

    Last edited by Ram11; 09 July 2015 at 06:46 PM.

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    Re: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

    Hello

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post

    3.What happens to souls that merge into Brahman?
    Do these liberated souls cease to exist?


    They become brahman, that is beyond existence and non-existence. You can neither say they exist nor they don not exist..


    4.Is there any number for the souls created by Brahman?
    Yes, number is infinite! You had better say Jivas.


    5.I have read that different lokas are the ultimate but why would say that Brahma Deva's Loka is the highest?
    Because in Gita, Vishnu says that brahmaloka is the highest loka. Vaikuntha, no doubt, is highest in all because there's peace of brahman.


    Can all deities grant full moksha which is different from staying in a Loka or only the Panchayatana Devatas can?
    No any god grants moksha. It's just figurative. In Gita, Bhagavan krishna says " I, situated as the self, remove the ignorance", so in nutshell, the self itself reveals itself..

    So,the dualistic devotee needs to learn something more i.e. realise non-duality.I
    n essence that dualistic soul has attained a very high position but is not totally liberated from Advaita POV,am I right?

    The only thing I can say, the distinction between atma and brahman is the greatest illusion. For him who believes in duality has rebirth. This is what Upanishada says..
    Hari On!

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    Re: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post
    Namaste Ji,

    I have some doubts,if they seem foolish kindly forgive me as I have not read about these things before.


    Namaste,

    There are no foolish questions. All masters were once newbies (I am not a master ).

    There are only sincere and just-for-time-pass questions

    I heard that every soul will attain moksha at some or other point of time.According to what you say,some souls may not attain moksha before dissolution.
    Yes, this is my understanding. Even rock or stone is a yoni.

    1.What would happen to souls that have not realized non-duality or have not attained any Loka?
    I dont know. But people those who have read Garuda Purana says they are in one of the 14 worlds according to their acts.

    during dissolution (minor ones), the lower worlds are destroyed. Here Rudra takes all souls within himself and upon new creation, the souls are again reborn.

    I am not an expert on creation -dissolution theory. I am not concerned with chant God's name and not much bother as to what happens after death or during dissolution. I just wish to not be reborn again i..e this death will be my last death or better I will have no death and this birth will be my last birth. I just wish to be free from cycle of birth and death and so focus more on meditation and try to find answers to my doubts that help my in meditating.

    2.Do they experience pain at dissolution time,why and of what kind?I heard the soul feels neither pleasure nor pain,what does this mean?
    Only lower bodies are destroyed. karaNa Sarira or causal body which has ego and al the mental impressions of our past actions does not die until moksha. Mind is technically destroyed only after liberation.

    3.What happens to souls that merge into Brahman?
    Do these liberated souls cease to exist?
    From advaita POV, the concept of soul is only relative. After vedeha mukti, the individuality is destroyed and so is ego and mind. Hence As per my understanding, the soul will merge like drop in ocean and will loose itself. Some think that number of souls always remain constant.

    I am not an expert and so I cant help more.

    If no,are they created(in unpolished language-recycled) again and are supposed to go through all samsara once again until next dissolution?
    Given answer in earlier response.

    4.Is there any number for the souls created by Brahman?
    I dont know

    5.I have read that different lokas are the ultimate but why would say that Brahma Deva's Loka is the highest?

    Mostly in bhAgavat it is mentioned that brahmaloka (satyaloka is the highest) loka. It is also mentioned in other purANa-s

    But I heard that in some Devalokas when the Punya balance is enjoyed or completed,the soul takes birth somewhere else.
    This is mostly svarga. I dont know about other loka-s. Sorry, I lack info. May be someone else can help.

    This is confusing Ji,how do we know in which Devata's Loka the stay is fixed till dissolution and in which Devatas loka the soul has to enter a new body elsewhere after the Punya is exhausted?
    Can all deities grant full moksha which is different from staying in a Loka or only the Panchayatana Devatas can?

    If you are looking for moksha, then generally all forms of God that are euglogized as the supreme in our SAstra-s can grant moksha. But if we demand something from them, then even viShNu will not grant you moksha even if you are in vaikuntha.

    From Advaita POV, if a body drops before you attain liberation, then you do not reach any loka, but are immediately reborn on earth. This is called as sadgati. This is because if I want non-dual moksha, then even staying in any loka-s is a waste of time. Even if we do not pray to any God and for our punya-s one attains higher loka-s like svarga, still except human birth, all other are considered as bhoga yoni. I dont know about the what happens in vaikuntha and Kailash. I am not much inclined to find answers.

    It all depends upon what you demand or desire.

    So,the dualistic devotee needs to learn something more i.e. realise non-duality.In essence that dualistic soul has attained a very high position but is not totally liberated from Advaita POV, am I right?
    Yes. But if one completely surrenders to God, then the same God will guide you to what is supreme. If it is eternal stay in vaikuntha then so be it, if it is non-dual moksha, so be it. All I ask anyone on spiritual path is to be open, free from bias and let God decide what is best for you like Arjun repeatedly praying to Krishna to 'give what is best for me' and not demanding something specific. This is complete surrender, unconditional surrender.

    'Staying with God' is also a demand. When even this wish will melt, then God will take control of your life and give you what is best for you.

    I dont know if I could give satisfactory answers, but this i as much as I can. My study of puranas is very weak, practically zero. I have only focused on advaitic path.

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Advaita-Smarta-Panchayatana-Nirguna Brahma SOME DOUBTS

    Namaste,

    I would like to add one more point that from brahmaloka, there is no return to earth.

    Note: In Gita commentary BG 8.16-18, it is said that there is return from brahmaloka, as it is within the realms of time and brhamA-ji too has his own life. While in brahma-sutra Sankara bhASya 4.4.22, it is said that there is no return from brahmaloka for a karma kANDin and for worshipper of a form of God. (someone needs to check and confirm this. I have not read brahma-sutras but have just heard a saint quoting it some time ago)

    OM

    Ref from Sutra bhashya

    Sutra 4,4.22
    अनावृत्तिः शब्दात्, अनावृत्तिः शब्दात् ॥ २२ ॥
    anāvṛttiḥ śabdāt, anāvṛttiḥ śabdāt || 22 ||

    anāvṛttiḥ—Non-return; śabdāt—on account of scriptural declaration.


    22. (There is) no return (for these released souls); on account of scriptural declaration (to that effect).


    If the powers of the released souls are limited, then like all limited things they too will come to an end, and consequently the released souls will have to come back from Brahmaloka to this mortal world —says the opponent. The Sutra refutes such a contingency on scriptural authority. Those who go to Brahmaloka by the path of the gods do not return from there. “Going up by that way, one reaches immortality” (Chh. 8. 6. 6.); “They no more return to this world” (Brih. 6. 2. 15).
    The repetition of the words “No return” etc. is to show that the book is finished.



    Ref from Gita

    आब्रह्मभुवनाल्लोकाः पुनरावर्तिनोऽर्जुन।

    मामुपेत्य तु कौन्तेय पुनर्जन्म न विद्यते।।8.16।।

    English translation by Swami Gambhirananda
    8.16 O Arjuna, all the worlds together with the world of Brahma are subject to return. But, O son of Kunti, there is no rebirth after reaching Me.

    English translation by Swami Gambhirananda (on Sri Sankaracharya's Sanskrit Commentary)

    8.16 O Arjuna, all the lokah, worlds; abrahma-bhuvanat, together with the world of Brahma-bhuvana is that (place) in which creatures are born, and brahma-bhuvana means the world of Brahma; punah avartinah, are subject to return, are by nature liable to come again; Tu, but; kaunteya, O son of Kunti, na vidyate, there is no; punarjanma, rebirth; upetya, after reaching; mam, Me alone.Why are all the worlds together with the realm of Brahma subject to return? Becuase they are limited by time. How?

    Swami Sivananda's commentary clarifies these two contradictions

    English commentary by Swami Sivananda


    8.16 आब्रह्मभुवनात् up to the world of Brahma, लोकाः worlds, पुनरावर्तिनः subject to return, अर्जुन O Arjuna, माम् Me, उपेत्य having attained, तु but, कौन्तेय O Kaunteya, पुनर्जन्म rebirth, न not, विद्यते is.Commentary: Those devotees who practise Daharopasana (a kind of meditation on the mystic 'space' in the heart) and other devotees who reach Brahmaloka through the path of the gods (Devayana) and attain gradual liberation (Krama-Mukti) will not return again to this world. But those who reach Brahmaloka through the practice of the Panchagni Vidya (a ritual) will enjoy life in Brahmaloka and come back to this world.All the worlds are subjected to return because they are limited or conditioned by time.

    Edit: 2: Please refer to BG 8.24 Sankara bhASya. It helps solve contradiction
    Last edited by Amrut; 08 December 2014 at 01:48 AM. Reason: added BG 8.24
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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