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Thread: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

  1. #11
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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Wonderful Question! Does consciousness act? As per "Advaita" for the status of "Advaitm" it shouldn't! Why so? If it has to act, it will then require the substratum, medium or instruments to act! ( we can extend this list for any meaningful definition or scientific understanding of what "Action" or Kriya means). To uphold the "Advaitm" of Brahman, it is described and explained or promised as "nishKriya", "nirGuna" and "nishKala" Tattva. If anyone of these three compromised, the Brahman is no longer "Advaitm" as there is an external agency that require participation along with the subject "Brahman". Now, the question of nothing being "external" but yet, the so called "Dream" is going on in the substratum of Brahman itself will be the defense as many neo advaita describes this dream life as "bubble in the sea water where its all ONLY water and also all changes are with in the substratum of water"! This is "bedha" but to understand this example having two subjects, we need to understand what is essential for to be in "no difference" and in "non Difference" state.

    No difference is not Advaitam unless it is qualified with "Absolute"! Water bubble is not "Absolutely different" from water, every one should agree. . Same time, water bubble is not sea or the substratum itself. Only few agree even though it warrants rational agreement with understanding. (Little more technical - What projected the Bubble out of the Sea water is not sea water itself but the combination of wind, earth rotation, salt and mineral content of the sea water etc. Likewise, "undivided Brahman or indivisible homogeneous Brahman cannot project a dream outside its own substratum with out an agent. If the agent is with in Brahman, then such agent then acts nullifying the nishKriya requirement and ultimately the Advaitm. The existence of such "dream" not in Brahman realized state warrants a differentiation separating "realized" from "unrealized" and that differentiation cannot be Brahman as the factor of difference cannot be part of Brahman as Brahman is nirGuna! The appearance of Bubble on the substratum of Brahman with the differentiation factor in, require the supportive "time" for its existence and the factor of time cannot be part of Brahman as it is nishKala which does not undergo the changes due to time!

    But the contrary looks more rational and scientific as we witness and experience and also the Shruti support with legitimate and grammatical interpretations! Emphasizing the first part being rational and scientific as ourselves are witnesses, it just brings millions questions of attesting the "still not explained" Advaita philosophy as scientific and rational and that is the reason behind the questioning!

    Hare Krshna!

  2. #12
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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    viyogin - separated; individual
    yogin - in union with the whole

    Are you saying they are two different reals?? Only Yogin must be real and even the viyogin must be a dream word that is not real!

    Even saying Yogin in "union" with the Whole is very incorrect... looks like that attributes the existence of something else called Yogin .

    The rational doubt is that, why or what is that idea or theory with evidence that insists on a rule that, we are not Separate? I am very curious to learn and read on why the "reality" of different states of existence and consciousness should not be accepted albeit the very same are the necessity to explain the states of consciousness to uphold a Brahman alone as the Only reality!

    Hare Krshna!

  3. #13

    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    The rational doubt is that, why or what is that idea or theory with evidence that insists on a rule that, we are not Separate? I am very curious to learn and read on why the "reality" of different states of existence and consciousness should not be accepted albeit the very same are the necessity to explain the states of consciousness to uphold a Brahman alone as the Only reality!

    Hare Krshna!
    praNAm

    I do hear you, of course, and really should not be saying anything here, but it seems that "Brahman alone is the reality" is merely supposed to be a bhAva that allows the one in consciousness of brahman-bhAva to ignore the various states of existence and consciousness.

    Further, 'the various states of consciousness have their source in the One Original Brahman' is the idea. You may have to make many hops to get to the original though. It is just that the advaita followers take this oneness dead-seriously So much, that making even one hop away from the . is a crime sort of. That is the only way to stay in that bhAva.

    .
    ~ ~
    aaaaa
    aum

    Hare KRshNa ~
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  4. #14

    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Namaste all

    Interesting discussion.
    I hope to take up the point raised by Sri Grames.

    Duality gives rise to fear͵ as the Upanishads say. It gives rise to Soka and Moha. (Tatra ko moha kah sokha EKATVAM aunpashyatah). According to the Bhagavad Gita duality gives rise to kaama krodha and lobha. Now what is common to all these terminologies is͵ they ALL give rise to SORROW in one way or the other.

    Advaita gives rise to fearlessness and sorrow-less-ness.

    Yo vai Bhooma tad vai Sukham is what the Sruti say.

    Sukham is not in the little things; it is in the Big Bigg Brahman.

  5. #15

    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Dear sriram

    Welcome. I will play the purvapakshin (devil's advocate) here.

    (1) Science itself presupposes a metaphysical position - a form of realism. That is, the external world exists independent of any observer whose real nature can be verified by employing certain epistemological tools. How is this compatible with Advaita?

    (2) Advaita's claim: Jiva (in essence) = Brahman (in essence). If "Jiva" suffers, does "Brahman" suffer? If "Jiva" does not suffer, who/what suffers?
    No one suffers, jivas are illusory because its just a body and brain. I don't exist only God exists, in fact any individual object is an illusion, only God exists.

    "Names and forms are like banglesand braclets, while Vishnu is like Gold" -adi shankara

  6. #16
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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Yajvan.,

    It has been questioned many times but unanswered....

    "If Brahman is the One and Only consciousness existing and real, there is no scope or room for a separate locus of experience that is independent and individual to a particular Jiva". In other words, accepting such independent and individual experience means, giving room for "Swagadha bedha" to undivided or undividable as there nothing else to divide the Brahman. ( Unless, Brahman is considered non-homogeneous and non-homogeneous brahman means Swadadha behda which is not Advaita again)

    In your example, there is no possibility for a "pot to break its Self or itself" and the only reality which can break the Pot or the reflection in the Pot is "Brahman" or the Original Self itself. Regardless of the pot or medium of reflection, the consciousness is still with Brahman or Brahman is the ONLY consciousness and real. So, Pot cannot act, break or think or get release and you obviously agree to all of these ( from ur other post regarding Moksha).

    This is something the classical Advaita haven't answered yet but the modern Advaitin accept Brahman to be a "complex compound" attributing "Swagadha Bedha" to Brahman or nullifying the position of "Advaitam".

    Just curious to know if i made any sense in the above point!

    Hare Krshna!
    Namaste,

    To clear certain concepts, one has to sit at the feet of Guru, digest his teachings and meditate the advaita way, as taught by Guru.

    Regarding pot breaking, it is true that Brahman alone can break and not the pot itself. Advaita is indeed the path of grace. Certain statements are to be taken as destination. IF you talk from ajat vada, then there is no creation, no maya, hence only pure consciousness i.e. Brahman.

    When you meditate, on OM, you are separating yourself by dis-associating with that is separate from you. In this process, you become a witness. A witness does not act. After regular meditation, OM continues by itself and one has to be aware of the source. Mind merges into the source of consciousness.

    The type of teaching or this explanation looks dual, but it is not.

    Throughout the meditation, be it years, one think does not change - The observer. You will experience that thoughts itself are hindrance, you may also experience that everything floats inside you. Finally when all desires are uprooted, only Brahman remain i.e. there is no observer. Throughout the process, there is no change experienced, as far as observer is concerned. Finally the experience of duality itself gets dissolved.

    From this standpoint, one can say that it was always brahman. I may not be able to explain you, but at no time you experience yourself as point of light. Once you become knower, you are separate from the object that you know. This is the conclusion of a Jnani that I am Brahman, I was never separate from Brahman.

    Not by acquiring Jnana, but by removing ajnana one is established in Self. Here the word 'to remove' is also used in dual sense for explanatory purpose. Actually it is dis-association. Neti-Neti, naa-iti, naa-iti, not-this, not-this.


    e.g. If you say - This is a rose flower

    It means that

    1. You are the knower of rose flower.
    2. You are not rose flower.

    In the same way, whatever that can be described, cannot be 'I'. It is only Brahman that cannot be described, says Shruti-s. It it could be described, means that there is someone who knows Brahman and that knower is separate from Brahman. Jiva is described in upanishads Sv. Up. 5.9.

    Now regarding experience of pleasure and pain, etc which you conclude that it indicates duality, the answer is -

    The pleasure and pain, duality is perceived when one associates with that is non-self. i.e. Atman or say for convenience Jiva associates with body and 5 senses.

    If you are not associated with them, then there is no experience of pleasure or pain.

    In deep sleep, no matter what be your physical condition e.g. a broken leg or some acute pain like that of bladder stone, nothing is experienced. A person in deep sleep always sleeps calmly. If the Jiva, the individual and is constantly trapped in body, or that the body is real and the pain is real, then the pain should be continuous. It should be experienced in deep sleep also. But we all know this is not the case.

    This also concludes that Atman is already achieved. So what is it that is responsible for pleasure and pain?

    It is ignorance (avidyA). Out of ignorance of true nature, sense of individuality arises and with is Ego. This ego is responsible for keeping us in duality. 4 functions of antakaraNa come into play and mind enters into the body made up of panch mahAbhuta-s. Please do not take the statement 'entering into body' literally. It is only for explanatory purpose. Mind associates itself with body. It cannot do anything by itself nor can it experience anything. Hence it experiences by associating with 5 senses and works by associating itself with karmendriya-s. All this is done in search of ananda. One always tries to search for ananda, even though one is athiest. There is nothing wrong to search for ananda, what is wrong is to search outside, when it is inside says Sri Ramana Maharshi.

    Our whole life is centered around this ananda. We create bank balance, invest in schemes to be ready just incase anything bad happens in future. In short we work for dukh-nivrritti (removal of sorrow).

    In this process, over a period of time, mind becomes slave of senses and cannot control itself. Senses drive mind and any direction.

    The culprit is association. If we dis-associate 'I', which is awareness, consciousness, with 5 senses and with body, then mind will enter into the infinite domain. Thoughts cease, breath stops, only pure consciousness remains. This is nirvikalp samadhi.

    The revelation that 'I am Brahman' is said from stand point of supreme reality. We are not experiencing it daily. If I say thus, still I am wrong, as in deep sleep I experience happiness, but do not remember it when I wake up.

    There is one nyaya- KiTa Brahmara nyAya. By constantly meditating on Brahman with abheda bhAva, one verily becomes Brahman. But after realizing Brahman, one realizes that one was never separate from Brahman, nor one experience that I am part and Brahman is whole. There is no experience to say this - I am part and Brahman is whole. To say this, one has to know Jiva and Brahman. In this case shruti is violated. Even by experience, one does not experience separateness.

    ---

    Constant meditation makes the meditation effortless. OM continues by itself. No extra effort is needed except that you sit in meditation. After this stage, the Real Self is waiting and then whatever is to be done is done by someone else (Real Self) and you as an individual have not hand in it - says Sri Ramana Maharshi.

    I hope this helps

    Aum

    Indiaspirituality

    P.S.: Under ignorance one feels duality. It is accepted by advaita as vyavahArika satya.
    Last edited by Amrut; 23 November 2013 at 09:35 AM. Reason: added some lines. Added line after P.S.
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

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  7. #17
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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Namaste,

    I will give another e.g.

    Paramatman is like an electricity say 240 V. When we split it and take only a part of voltage and current say 5 V, it is the same electricity. We can switch on a bulb and it will glow, due to electricity. We cannot see electricity, but we can see glow.

    Now's lets attach a regulator (like fan's speed regulator). If I change the settings and increase power, bulb will glow more bright. In this case too it is due to same electricity.

    Taping electricity does not mean that electricity is separated at anytime, nor can a spark of electricity remain extant for even few moments. It cease to exist. So to think a spark to be eternal, means it can live and can light bulb forever (till the filament aka. body is not burned or broken.). As soon as you change bulb, same spark of electricity will again make the bulb flow it is reaches it end of life and this goes on. This argument is not valid. It was always electricity that lit the bulb.

    We can also take e.g. of moon. Moon does not have it's own light, but it reflects the light of Sun. In the same way, Light of Atman (Brahman) falls on mind and intellect, which in turn gets reflected. It is this reflected light that we see.

    Moonlight has different characteristics than sunlight. Moonlight is cool and milky while, while sunlight is golden yellow and warm / hot in nature. One can look into the full moon at midnight, but one cannot look into the sun at midday.

    Even though we say that there are differences and so duality, in reality, the reflected light of moon, was never moon's own, nor moon has capacity to retain the light by itself even for few minutes. There is no question of moon becoming self luminous. No part and whole theory

    In the same way, the consciousness (light), which is falls on mind, gets reflected by mind.

    In other words, consciousness (light) shines the mind, and from within the mind it itself shines, as though appearing that it is the mind that is actually emanating light (moon emanating it's own light).

    We can say in the e.g. of moon and moon light -

    Never was the light separate from sun,
    Never did moon independently emanated light by it's own,
    Never did moon reflected only a part of light
    Never did moon retain sunlight and reflected own it's own.
    Never did moon separated sunlight and divided into small fragments. Moon reflects everything that falls upon itself.

    In short moon does not have any capacity to remain self luminous.

    The part and whole philosophy does not account in this e.g. of moonlight.

    Mind which stands for moon, is jaDa (gross). It cannot function by itself without the power of soul (moon light). Moon does not have it's existence on new-moon day

    Soul was never separated. Moon light is actually sun-light.

    Aum

    Indiaspirituality
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  8. #18
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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Namaste,

    I will continue from second last post

    The pleasure and pain, duality is perceived when one associates with that is non-self. i.e. Atman or say for convenience Jiva associates with body and 5 senses.

    If you are not associated with them, then there is no experience of pleasure or pain.
    When you witness an accident, you feel compassion for the victim. But if you are not present at the accident spot, do you experience any compassion?

    Every moment many are born (happiness), many die (sorrow), but do we experience happiness and sorrow every moment? Why? because we are not aware or conscious of this facts. So it is the consciousness that matters and not the incidents.

    EDIT: Now let us add one more factor. The victim is your relative. Now just being compassionate will not do, you will have to act. The impact of incident is more. If the relative is blood relative, the impact on mind is still greater. If you do not know the victim, the impact is low and you may move on. So it is the association or clinging, how much mind gives importance that matters and not the accident itself. By thinking of this world as mithyA (illusion or impermanent), one looses interest and dis-associates with sense objects and persons, and in this process mind becomes introvert.

    Consciousness is of utmost importance in advaita and separating it from 5 senses and sense objects and body is like separating milk from mixture of milk and water. Hans (swan) as this ability. Hence swam is an important symbol in Advaita. The one who can separate non-self from self and abide in Self is called as Rajhansa or say paramhansa.

    Samadhi is consciousness it is not unconsciousness else it will be deep sleep.

    Aum

    Indiaspirituality
    Last edited by Amrut; 23 November 2013 at 09:45 AM. Reason: added line after EDIT
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  9. #19
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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Excellent posts! Just want to pick two lines....

    Advaita is indeed the path of grace.
    In the same way, Light of Atman (Brahman) falls on mind and intellect, which in turn gets reflected. It is this reflected light that we see.

    The fundamental problem or question is not YET answered...
    For mind and intellect to reflect the Brahman, they have to have existence eternally!
    In the example, it means, the Moon has to be real to reflect the Brahman.

    Rotating the side of argument...

    Its not Jiva which has to do the "OM" pranava to realize itself as Brahman but its Brahman which is "eternally" THE PRANAVA and thus, no kind of vada or philosophy can explain this "RATIONALLY" ever. The trap is in the three requirements of nirGunattva, nishKala and nishKriyattva for the Brahman!

    The 5V if it can act on itself, it is never separate from the 240 volt! Sounds very good. There is no factor that will ever separate the source 240V then what separated this 240V to a mere 5V? That separator has to be real if there is a possibility of 5V. ( in our case, some transformer).

    Everything else in your messages can be explained rationally but after compromising the Brahman as separate entity from Jiva. This is unacceptable to Advaita!

    Hare Krshna!

  10. #20
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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Excellent posts! Just want to pick two lines....

    Advaita is indeed the path of grace.
    In the same way, Light of Atman (Brahman) falls on mind and intellect, which in turn gets reflected. It is this reflected light that we see.

    The fundamental problem or question is not YET answered...
    For mind and intellect to reflect the Brahman, they have to have existence eternally!
    In the example, it means, the Moon has to be real to reflect the Brahman.

    Rotating the side of argument...

    Its not Jiva which has to do the "OM" pranava to realize itself as Brahman but its Brahman which is "eternally" THE PRANAVA and thus, no kind of vada or philosophy can explain this "RATIONALLY" ever. The trap is in the three requirements of nirGunattva, nishKala and nishKriyattva for the Brahman!

    The 5V if it can act on itself, it is never separate from the 240 volt! Sounds very good. There is no factor that will ever separate the source 240V then what separated this 240V to a mere 5V? That separator has to be real if there is a possibility of 5V. ( in our case, some transformer).

    Everything else in your messages can be explained rationally but after compromising the Brahman as separate entity from Jiva. This is unacceptable to Advaita!

    Hare Krshna!
    Namaste,

    This is the reason why I had said that one has to practically live the advaita way to understand.

    Let us take that mind has to separately exists. Still every time our focus is one Jiva and Brahman.

    I again say that in Nirvikalp samadhi, there is no mind, no body, no world, no mAyA. Hence they all end in Jnana. So they are not eternal.

    You do not visualize or see that mind is burned off. 'I' disassociates itself.

    Advaita says there is non-duality, as this statement has to be taken as a destination and as parmarthika satya. I am talking in this way, as we will have to apply it practically.

    The idea is to first separate 'I' (consciousness) form that is not 'I'. Here too there is duality. But one does not stop being just a witness. One has to transcend or rise above or go beyond mind and 3 guNa-s. In this state, there is no separate identity. This is the last stage.

    Adi Shankara also says 'vyavahArika satya'. Certain things are to be accepted, else one cannot give upadesha.

    Even if you take Neti-Neti, still you are separating what is 'not you' (not this, not this is neti neti).

    Then who come Adi Shankara even talk about neti neti and meditating on OM.

    Advaita does not reject dvaita on vyavarAhika satya. two levels of truth are found in shastras too Please refer Br. Up. 2.3.6 and few verses before it. Refer Patanjali Yoga Sutra 2.22.

    Any philosophy, though however great and impressive and intellectual it may be, if it fails to rise a seeker to absolute truth, then is it of any use.

    One of the 4 mahAvAkya-s is 'satvam khalu-idam Brahma' meaning everything 'else' is also Brahman.

    See here too the word else is present. Why? Whatever you see is not different from Brahman. It is Brahman itself.

    The only question is - Is Brahman transformed i.e. permanently changed or not?

    Advaita says, Brahman appears as different things under influence of mAyA. When one goes beyond mAyA, one experiences pure Brahman. Brahman is not experienced separately so that it can be defined or described.

    Other religio-philosophical schools say something different, hence they say that Jiva exists eternally and so does this world and Ishvara.

    This is a philosophical difference. If advaita was only philosophical, then it would be more or less like nyAya.

    As you progress, you will realize it, else it is difficult to understand intellectually. It is the realization that is of advaitic nature.

    IF I deny this world and body form day one and so not put concept of vyavaharika satya, then it would be difficult to even talk about anything. What to talk, everything is mithyA. Then Adi Shankara would not have written commentaries.

    One has to explain from ground level and has to lift disciple to another level. Hence upadesha is given on adhikAra bheda. This is the reason why, in Shankara BhASya you wont find acharya sticking to one truth.

    The correct teaching is 'adhyAropa apavAda' i.e. (false) superimposition followed by subsequent retraction

    First attributes are given to Brahman and said that 'Brahman created this world', etc then later on in the same shruti, the attributes are retracted by saying 'Brahman is neither this nor that'. This happens mostly via becoming a witness. This teaching is found in Gita and in upanishads

    I have attempted to explain this here

    IF you analyze Gita,

    Ch 1: First lord lets Arjuna do what he wants
    Ch 2: Arjuna surrenders. Bhagavan gives qualities of Self Realized soul BG 2.55-59 (one has to show road map, hence trailor. Real picture now begins, or should I say, Gita is over with chapter 2)
    Ch. 3: Explains karma
    Ch 6: control of mind
    Ch 7-10: Bhakti
    Ch 11: virAta svarupa
    Ch. 12: teaches bhakti
    Ch13: witness (lshetra-kshetragya). refer last verse. Which 2 things bhagavan is talking? it is shown in 13.12 and 13.13 in Shankara bhashya. In Ramanuja it is 13.13 and 13.14)
    Ch.18: Moksha-SanyAs Yoga. Why Moksha, Why SAnyAsa. What is sanyAsa?

    See, bhagavan does not ask us to be a witness from chapter 1. First to do karma and purify mind, then steady mind by doing bhakti, then comes Jnana. First step is to be a witness. Last words of Arjuna is naSto moha smritir labdhA meaning 'my ignorance is destroyed'. GItA starts with a mohAndha (blinded by attachment - me and mine - DritarAShTra)

    I hope you get it.

    You cannot apply what is said for advanced seeker to a newbie. Hence advaita which corresponds to 4th ashram should not be studied in first ashram , except you are pure by birth.

    So one has to prepare for advaita Jnana. Hence Adi Shankara in his tatva Bodh, which is very basic, talks about anitya (not eternal) and dosha darshan. Even tough the world is real, it is not eternal. Everything is temporary, including our body, we realize this when we go to smaSAna - cremation ground, but never bother

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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