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Thread: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

  1. #1

    Smile Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Fellow Advaitins ,

    This is my personal opinion, I have gone through other philosophies and I found that most people follows those philosophies since it simply appeals to them emotionally, but I find only Advaita Vedanta to be rational and absolutely scientific in nature. I also believe that one can arrive at Advaita with out even reading the scriptures after all the scriptures are mere expressions of the thoughts of the Rishis nothing more than that. It is interesting to find that advaitins are more modern in their own approach.

    I would also like to add that even if other schools of thoughts prove Advaita to be a Buddhist school in disguise, that will also not be an issue for Advaita since Advaita is not dependent on the scriptures but dependent on itself.


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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Thanks. We respect your personal view. However Science is still nascent compared to what advaita says. And definition of rationality varies from person to person.

    So there might be few questions asked.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Dear sriram

    Welcome. I will play the purvapakshin (devil's advocate) here.

    (1) Science itself presupposes a metaphysical position - a form of realism. That is, the external world exists independent of any observer whose real nature can be verified by employing certain epistemological tools. How is this compatible with Advaita?

    (2) Advaita's claim: Jiva (in essence) = Brahman (in essence). If "Jiva" suffers, does "Brahman" suffer? If "Jiva" does not suffer, who/what suffers?

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Quote Originally Posted by Sriram257 View Post
    Fellow Advaitins ,

    This is my personal opinion, I have gone through other philosophies and I found that most people follows those philosophies since it simply appeals to them emotionally, but I find only Advaita Vedanta to be rational and absolutely scientific in nature. I also believe that one can arrive at Advaita with out even reading the scriptures after all the scriptures are mere expressions of the thoughts of the Rishis nothing more than that. It is interesting to find that advaitins are more modern in their own approach.

    I would also like to add that even if other schools of thoughts prove Advaita to be a Buddhist school in disguise, that will also not be an issue for Advaita since Advaita is not dependent on the scriptures but dependent on itself.


    Dear Sriram,

    ‘Advaita- Vedānta', as stated by Saṅkara, is not mere utterances of our ancient seers; it is a methodological representation of the same truth found in the Upaniṣads in a rather scientific format with a varied epistemology.

    Vedānta, known in common parlance is different from the one elaborated by the master Saṅkara; but then again, it is agreed that the threefold authoritative text books of Advaita-Vedānta, the Bhagavad Gīta , the Upaniṣads and the Brahmasūtras, commonly known as Vedānta, are the utterances of our ancient seers in a metaphorical manner.

    It is also agreed that one can reach the state of Vedānta without even reading the scriptures; but, to save the truth from falling into absurdity of mere belief, scepticism and cult, to express the same truth in words, a scientific method is always recommended.

    Science after all is a rational game; it is a play of our intellect on experiments and observations in laboratory conditions. End result of all these calculations are some kind of knowledge attained by the observer about the thing being observed.

    Advaita Vedānta is a science and hence it has to be scientific. But, it is a totally different epistemology that Advaita Vedānta speaks of; here the observer and observed are not different; instead it belongs to the same stratum of existence which is nothing other than one Consciousness-Reality that knows both the subject and the object. Or in other words, finally, these two, the observer and the observed, finds homogeneity within that same Consciousness- Reality that which gives room for all these kinds of human reasoning.

    After all, more than satisfying our intellectual curiosity, ensuring happiness in life has always been the ultimate goal of Saṅkara; philosophy for him was only a value-science alone.

    Love
    Last edited by brahman; 13 November 2013 at 09:36 AM.
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
     


    you mention,
    I also believe that one can arrive at Advaita with out even reading the scriptures after all the scriptures are mere expressions of the thoughts of the Rishis nothing more than that.


    The notion of our seers ( ṛṣi-s¹) are a bit more profound then what you offer... they did not think of the knowledge, but they cognized it within consciousness , truth (satyaṁ). This is considered śruti ( that is which is ~heard~ within consciousness).

    It is from their level of expanded awareness that this śruti is cognized. And from here we are given the ṛg ved and other bodies of knowledge. This should not be confused with smṛ́ti which is 'remembered' and handed down in writing by our enlightened authors.

    This is the fundamental building block of sanātana dharma considered ārṣa¹ dharma.

    iti śiva

    • ṛṣi-s called out in the mahābhārata are marīci , atri , aṅgiras , pulaha , kratu , pulastya , vasiṣṭha are given as the names of the ṛṣis of the first manvantara , and they are also called prajāpati-s
      • ṛṣi-s are also called 'kavi' defined as gifted with insight , intelligent , knowing , enlightened , wise
    • ārṣa - belonging to or derived from ṛṣi-s
    Last edited by yajvan; 13 November 2013 at 03:42 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #6

    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Namasthe.

    Advaita or Dvaita or Visistadvaita. Which one is true is to verified within ones core of heart but not to be like based on some reading as these were preached by their insight.

    We can discuss to understand what exactly they mean but showing bias towards something is not going to help. If one has reached that state and living in that state, then surely you are welcome to share.

    Without doing sadhana , liking disliking something is not going to help.
    How many people who are discussing realized Brahman..?

    SD is not an intellectual philosophy but spiritual science revealed after lot of hard work. Kindly respect all but not criticise without base of practice.

    I am determined to reach that state. We all should.

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
     

    you mention,
    I find only Advaita Vedanta to be rational and absolutely scientific in nature.
    Here is a position from the dvaita¹ point of view. They would say if the SELF (ātman) is one without a second, then that infers that if one person gains mokṣa then all should also gain mokṣa at that time.

    The advaitin would say not so. Here is the example. Take multiple pots and fill them with water. Place them in the sun. We will see multiple reflections in each pot of the same sun. Break one pot and only one pot's reflection is gone not all of them. The same with the veil of ignorance being lifted from the person and experiencing the full rays of liberation.

    The jīva ( a living being ) is of the reflected light of the Supreme... the jīva is the body + ego + intellect + etc. and sees multiplicity
    about him/her and assumes all are like him. The person is within individuality. Let's look at this word for a moment.

    individuality
    a. the quality or character of a particular person or thing that distinguishes them from others of the same kind,
    b. separate existence
    There is more to this word if we dis-assemble it: in + divi + duality
    • in is rooted in 'inv' which = to infuse strength , invigorate , gladden
    • divi¹ - look to its 2nd derivation and we have 'div' - this means to play, sport, joke; we also know it means to shine and be bright. most see this in the word deva ( rooted in 'div'). Yet the 1st derivation of 'div' is to cause to lament , to pain.
    • duality - more then 1; and in sanscrit it is dvaita
    So, from my point of view in + divi + duality is that strength that infuses more differences and that can bring pleasure (sport) or pain (div).
    This is what many wish to avoid on this earth (pain or div) , yet is fueled (strengthened or in) by continuing a high level of 'me' ness, of self-centeredness.

    Advaita suggests there is a way out of this pickle. Unity in the mist of diversity. Within the multiplicity of the whole universe there is commonality of Being, the foundation of existence. If one associates ( identifies) and realizes this natural level, then there harmony in one's vision of the world. The diversity moves to the background, and the underlying unity becomes obvious. Like the moon showing in the daytime. One sees it but it is completely out-shined by the brilliance of the sun.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • divi = is also the blue jay or kikīdiví
    • dvaita = duality , duplicity , dualism ; from dvi meaning two
    • daivata - or relating to the divine
    Last edited by yajvan; 14 November 2013 at 07:34 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Dear Yajvan.,

    It has been questioned many times but unanswered....

    "If Brahman is the One and Only consciousness existing and real, there is no scope or room for a separate locus of experience that is independent and individual to a particular Jiva". In other words, accepting such independent and individual experience means, giving room for "Swagadha bedha" to undivided or undividable as there nothing else to divide the Brahman. ( Unless, Brahman is considered non-homogeneous and non-homogeneous brahman means Swadadha behda which is not Advaita again)

    In your example, there is no possibility for a "pot to break its Self or itself" and the only reality which can break the Pot or the reflection in the Pot is "Brahman" or the Original Self itself. Regardless of the pot or medium of reflection, the consciousness is still with Brahman or Brahman is the ONLY consciousness and real. So, Pot cannot act, break or think or get release and you obviously agree to all of these ( from ur other post regarding Moksha).

    This is something the classical Advaita haven't answered yet but the modern Advaitin accept Brahman to be a "complex compound" attributing "Swagadha Bedha" to Brahman or nullifying the position of "Advaitam".

    Just curious to know if i made any sense in the above point!

    Hare Krshna!

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Regardless of the pot or medium of reflection, the consciousness is still with Brahman or Brahman is the ONLY consciousness and real. So, Pot cannot act, break or think or get release
    Does consciousness act/break/think? It appears to me that any action/breaking/thinking implies a change. In other words, does consciousness change? Any change implies a prior and a posterior state. What are these two states for consciousness?

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    Re: Advaita Vedanta scientific and rational

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
     
    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Yajvan.,

    It has been questioned many times but unanswered....

    "If Brahman is the One and Only consciousness existing and real, there is no scope or room for a separate locus of experience that is independent and individual to a particular Jiva". In other words, accepting such independent and individual experience means, giving room for "Swagadha bedha" to undivided or undividable as there nothing else to divide the Brahman. ( Unless, Brahman is considered non-homogeneous and non-homogeneous brahman means Swadadha behda which is not Advaita again)

    In your example, there is no possibility for a "pot to break its Self or itself" and the only reality which can break the Pot or the reflection in the Pot is "Brahman" or the Original Self itself. Regardless of the pot or medium of reflection, the consciousness is still with Brahman or Brahman is the ONLY consciousness and real. So, Pot cannot act, break or think or get release and you obviously agree to all of these ( from ur other post regarding Moksha).

    This is something the classical Advaita haven't answered yet but the modern Advaitin accept Brahman to be a "complex compound" attributing "Swagadha Bedha" to Brahman or nullifying the position of "Advaitam".

    Just curious to know if i made any sense in the above point!

    Hare Krshna!
    What can be separate if we assume ( according to the śāstra-s) that brahman is bhūman ( whole, full, plentiful, without break or pause) ?

    That said, I did not follow what you are offering here:
    In your example, there is no possibility for a "pot to break its Self or itself" and the only reality which can break the Pot or the reflection in the Pot is "Brahman" or the Original Self itself


    You see, it all depends on the vantage point of the conversation and who is doing the looking .... the viyogin¹ or the yogin¹.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • viyogin - separated; individual
    • yogin - in union with the whole
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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