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Thread: Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

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    Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

    It is often claimed that there are no references to reincarnation and karma in the veda samahitas and that the theory of karma and reincarnation is born of later speculation.

    I seem to have found a reference in the Rig Veda Samahita that shows otherwise.I wonder why western indologists are so keen to try to show that modern hinduism has no basis in the vedas.

    RV 10.16.3 The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit; go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. Go, if it be thy lot, unto the waters; go, make thine home in plants with all thy members.
    Last edited by Omkara; 29 December 2012 at 09:38 AM.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

    Has anybody else come across any such verses?
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

    This is a question that interests me a great deal. As you correctly state, the standard view in western academia is that the first explicit references to karma and rebirth are in the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad, and that earlier Vedic literature contains, at most, poetic references possibly evocative of such ideas (such as the one you have quoted) but not the fully developed model of karma and rebirth found later. The assumption is generally that the more systematic model of the Upaniṣads evolved from simpler, earlier ideas.

    In The Secret of the Veda, however, Sri Aurobindo makes a powerful argument for the claim that the fully developed system of Vedānta, including karma and rebirth, is already present in the Ṛg Veda, but that the terminology used is of a more symbolic and evocative character. He essentially turns the western indological model on its head. Whereas the western model has Vedānta developing gradually, from the Saṃhitās and then through the Brāhmaṇas, Āraṇyakas, and Upaniṣads, Aurobindo says that the entire system was already known by the original ṛṣis and that the later texts are of an explanatory nature, making explicit what was already known, but esoteric.

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    Re: Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    I wonder why western indologists are so keen to try to show that modern hinduism has no basis in the vedas.
    There is a saying that one cannot be a philosopher unless one disagrees with the established philosophers. Many academics in Indology would not have a job if they acknowledged that the secrets of vedAnta were already known to the AchAryas. They have to propose alternate paradigms such as saMhitA-s are older than upaniShads, etc. Otherwise they will lose their grant money.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    There is a saying that one cannot be a philosopher unless one disagrees with the established philosophers. Many academics in Indology would not have a job if they acknowledged that the secrets of vedAnta were already known to the AchAryas. They have to propose alternate paradigms such as saMhitA-s are older than upaniShads, etc. Otherwise they will lose their grant money.

    I believe 100 percent in yr statement.
    kind regards

    Arjunesh
    AUM

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    Re: Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

    Just wanted to express my appreciation for the effort. The indologists no doubt had an agenda to break all the scriptures apart saying that they were all unrelated works of fiction.

    Atleast, refuting such Purva pakshis make us firmer on our path .

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    Re: Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

    Satay's post in another thread makes a good addition to this thread-
    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaste Maha,

    Chapter VIII, Jivatma and the doctine of Re-Birth, the author explains quiet nicely that the concept of reincarnation is very much part of the Vedas. To think that Rg veda does not contain any reference about jivatma and its re-birth and that these are found in the Brahmana portions of a later origin is quite erroneous.

    According to the author, the Vedas do no only contemplate that the earth is the only place of abode of the Jivas but place such as swarloka, pittloka, Yamaloka and Bhurloka are all mentioned in the Vedas where Jiva migrates to. In this regard, Atma or soul is called 'Suparna' or Bird in the Vedas. There is a mention of a famous Rigvedic mantra which I can't seem to type here in my post but it contains the word suparna in it.

    It is mentioned that just as the Rigveda recognises the existence of the human beings, it also recognises the existence of the manes and the devas.

    By Karma men attain to the state of the devas. From Rk 1.38.4 and 1.77.2 it can be known that the Maruts were originally men but became devas through karma. The Rbhus who were sons of Sudhanva of the Angira clan, became devas by karma (Vide Rk 1.161.2, 1.110.2)

    The Angrias, atharva and Bhrgu attained the state of the Pitr (Manes) Rk 1.172, 10.14.4, 10.14.6. and so on and so forth such things are mentioned in the Rg.

    From all this it can be asserted that it is an error to say that doctrine of transmigration and re-birth is of later origins.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    It is often claimed that there are no references to reincarnation and karma in the veda samahitas and that the theory of karma and reincarnation is born of later speculation.

    I seem to have found a reference in the Rig Veda Samahita that shows otherwise.I wonder why western indologists are so keen to try to show that modern hinduism has no basis in the vedas.

    RV 10.16.3 The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit; go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. Go, if it be thy lot, unto the waters; go, make thine home in plants with all thy members.
    This verse is about the body, life force and indriyas all the constituents of the body and mind, dissolving and returning to the associated elements after death, like earth, wind, water and so forth. So it is about impermanence and interdependence of individualised human life and mind with the rest of the universe. A vedic concept that later became prominent in Buddhism. The ability of sight goes for instance to the sun, since seeing is associated with the sun, other indriyas go of course elsewhere, this is implied here, the breath to the air etc. the decomposed body to the earth and therefore it turns into nourishment for plants. It is really sometimes heartbreaking to read this forum, what a sad state of things. Actually there is a sequence during death in which the indriyas and pranas each dissolve and cease to function and what symptoms are associated with this dissolution, which becomes important in later tantric teachings.

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    Re: Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    This verse is about the body, life force and indriyas all the constituents of the body and mind, dissolving and returning to the associated elements after death, like earth, wind, water and so forth. So it is about impermanence and interdependence of individualised human life and mind with the rest of the universe. A vedic concept that later became prominent in Buddhism. The ability of sight goes for instance to the sun, since seeing is associated with the sun, other indriyas go of course elsewhere, this is implied here, the breath to the air etc. the decomposed body to the earth and therefore it turns into nourishment for plants. It is really sometimes heartbreaking to read this forum, what a sad state of things.
    You are hopelessly out of depth arguing with hindus about the meaning of their scripture.

    Let us examine this sukta in detail-
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10016.htm

    This sukta is in praise of Agni in the form if the cremation fire, as seen from the lines-
    1. Burn him not up, nor quite consume him, Agni: let not his body or his skin be scattered O Jātavedas, when thou hast matured him, then send him on his way unto the Fathers.
    4 Thy portion is the goat: with heat consume him: let thy fierce flame, thy glowing splendour, burn him With thine auspicious forms, o Jātavedas, bear this man to the region of the pious.
    9 1 send afar flesh eating Agni, bearing off stains may he depart to Yama's subjects But let this other Jātavedas carry oblation to the Gods, for he is skilful.

    Now, the sukta says-
    3 The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit; go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. Go, if it be thy lot, unto the waters; go, make thine home in plants with all thy members.

    This makes it clear that the state attained in the afterlife is based on a person's karma, and also that after death a person may come back to the earth, or go to heaven, or live in the waters.

    5 Again, O Agni, to the Fathers send him who, offered in thee, goes with our oblations. Wearing new life let him increase his offspring: let him rejoin a body, Jātavedas.

    A clear reference to the soul of a dead person being given a new body.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Reincarnation and Karma in the Veda Samahita

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    You are hopelessly out of depth arguing eith hindus about the meaning of their scripture.

    Let us examoline this sukta in detail-
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10016.htm

    This sukta is in praise of Agni in the form if the cremation fire, as seen from the lines-
    1. Burn him not up, nor quite consume him, Agni: let not his body or his skin be scattered O Jātavedas, when thou hast matured him, then send him on his way unto the Fathers.
    4 Thy portion is the goat: with heat consume him: let thy fierce flame, thy glowing splendour, burn him With thine auspicious forms, o Jātavedas, bear this man to the region of the pious.
    9 1 send afar flesh eating Agni, bearing off stains may he depart to Yama's subjects But let this other Jātavedas carry oblation to the Gods, for he is skilful.

    Now, the sukta says-
    3 The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit; go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. Go, if it be thy lot, unto the waters; go, make thine home in plants with all thy members.

    This makes it clear that the state attained in the afterlife is based on a person's karma, and also that after death a person may come back to the earth, or go to heaven, or live in the waters.

    5 Again, O Agni, to the Fathers send him who, offered in thee, goes with our oblations. Wearing new life let him increase his offspring: let him rejoin a body, Jātavedas.

    A clear reference to the soul of a dead person being given a new body.
    Of course after dissolving the elements of his impermanent body and leaving it behind, he gains another subtle body to go to pitris.... O Agni, to the Fathers send him....

    The sukta begins with the following verses:

    1. Burn him not up, nor quite consume him, Agni: let not his body or his skin be scattered. (that means it is a prayer to the cremation fire to not burn his body during life, and transfer (mature) his permanent self to the ancestors and to not entirely reduce him to naught)
    O Jātavedas, when thou hast matured him, then send him on his way unto the Fathers.
    2 When thou hast made him ready, Jātavedas, then do thou give him over to the Fathers.
    When he attains unto the life that waits him, (after his impermanent body is consumend by agni= cremation fire after death, and returnend , each part to the proper cosmic element) he shall become the Deities' controller. (That means when he lives in the afterlife among his ancestors he is made a controller even of the deities)
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 09 March 2013 at 10:03 AM.

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