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Thread: An Endless Potential State

  1. #1

    An Endless Potential State

    This is something I have written up in an attempt to allay my doubts surrounding various points about Sanatana Dharma. I wonder if there are any inconsistencies here I might not be aware of.

    ***

    Shake up a bottle of Sprite™ and start opening it. What do you see? Bubbles start racing in streams upward to the top which, had you turned all the way, soda would have gushed out of in spades.

    When did this potential state of happening first occur? Was it when you twisted the cap? Or when you first shook up the bottle? What if the bottle had been rattling in your car for hours on the way home? What about before? Looking at things microscopically, when did the bubbles actually "start" racing when you finally gave the cap its twist?

    Take another example. Say you start falling asleep while riding a Ferris Wheel. Say you become jolted while in your doze. You wake up immediately disconcerted! How long was I on the ride? When did this wheel start turning? At that concentrated point of questioning, there is no idea of limitation to how long. It may have been fifteen minutes or it may have been an eternity. Prior to concepts hedging one's experience of time, there is no means to measure.

    Take the notion of desire in this relation. Prior to the satisfaction of any desire one has what may be termed longing. There is a sense of both potency and incompleteness. Potency is a measure of one's longing, which is really infinite. As part and parcel of the divine, only absolute fullness can recompense to us our own sense of our natures. Incompleteness is the distance between the object of longing and one's unfulfilled desire. When we feel incomplete we are trapped in longing. We wish to escape into dreams of desire. This of course is illusion. We are already full! Or, to put it in devotional terms, God is already omnipresent and ready to be enjoyed at this very moment! We realize, then, not intellectually but viscerally and intimately, that our unfulfilled desire, waiting to be actualized in a never-ending future, is already the state of our own fullness, and God's fullness, and we simply need to realize that fact. Potency then is true actuality and incompleteness is misconstrued completeness! This is pure non-duality at its most explicit!

    Now the question arises as to how such a flat-out base contradiction could have ever arisen: to seek what is outside oneself in order to satisfy oneself, who is all things? If God is all-blissful, then we could not be God. We cannot deceive ourselves into being on a par with sat-cit-ananda proper if that is the Absolute, for the Absolute can never be fooled.

    What is a more compelling interpretive frame is the idea that we entered into this material world at a given point in time, and that we are infinitesimal specks of that Absolute. That is when time arose, to state it more accurately. Material time, if not spiritual time. Spiritual time is endless and seamless, without the finite break we call an individual "present" which limits our perception conceptually. On the other hand, our entrance into matter is akin to heaving a long heavy wrench into an endless, unruffled turbine. All of a sudden the turbine slows down, starts creaking or even stops altogether. This is deadness, dullness, and lethargy - in other words, matter. All in juxtaposition to the activity, the dynamism and endless energy of Shakti/Shaktiman, as represented by the turbine, in relation to which the appearance of matter is nothing - a mere appearance in the endless roll of Eternity. And yet, the decision to throw the wrench in was always there. Why is that? Because of beginningless ignorance. The sense that one was always incomplete, at least in some way if not another. Or that there was some desire or wish that was left unfulfilled - that could only be, that MUST be, ACTUALIZED. And that desire was for, of all things, material enjoyment, which we know is so tempting.

    And so this is the reason for the blowing up of the soda bottle. This is the reason for the jolt on the Wheel. This is why we are not God but an infinitesimal fraction of the Potency of God. We were always, prior to time, in spiritual variegatedness, in our own pastimes, sometimes within closer proximity to God, sometimes farther away, but never in complete Knowledge of non-duality, the Final Understanding. This is why our entrance into Matter, out of Eden as it were, though it was due to our own ignorance and our own misuse of free will, was nonetheless inevitable to our growth and coming to see, that even Matter is nothing more than a gritty mirror image, a paling reflection of our own Potency, which is the Potency of God and the cure to our "incompleteness."
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: An Endless Potential State

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    Prior to concepts hedging one's experience of time, there is no means to measure.

    What is a more compelling interpretive frame is the idea that we entered into this material world at a given point in time, and that we are infinitesimal specks of that Absolute. That is when time arose, to state it more accurately. Material time, if not spiritual time. Spiritual time is endless and seamless, without the finite break we call an individual "present" which limits our perception conceptually. We were always, prior to time, in spiritual variegatedness, in our own pastimes, sometimes within closer proximity to God, sometimes farther away, but never in complete Knowledge of non-duality, the Final Understanding.
    The concept of "time" is fascinating. Although the rest of the post went above my head the discussion about time may be interesting.

    To me, time is eternal in the absolute sense. "Prior" to the Big Bang, there was also time. There will always be time in the future. If one believes that "time" started at some point or with some event, it seems self-contradictory. For it begs the question - "What caused that event?" A cause has to necessarily precede the effect in a temporal sense.

  3. #3

    Red Face Re: An Endless Potential State

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    The concept of "time" is fascinating. Although the rest of the post went above my head the discussion about time may be interesting.

    To me, time is eternal in the absolute sense. "Prior" to the Big Bang, there was also time. There will always be time in the future. If one believes that "time" started at some point or with some event, it seems self-contradictory. For it begs the question - "What caused that event?" A cause has to necessarily precede the effect in a temporal sense.
    The more I look about it, I tend to agree that time always was. "Atemporal" means time not as we know it. It isn't some sort of halt, or frozen static state. Instead it simply isn't limited to our moment-by-moment way of parsing experience.

    God is said to be the greatest of the great but also the smallest of the small. Why is that? My understanding, as of now, is that God is literally infinite in his potencies. It's as though one had a block of gold one could infinitely subdivide, over and over again. One might think one's dividends would necessarily grow smaller, but in fact they are all infinite parts and parcels. One cannot discriminate in terms of size when it comes to a non-spacial Being. Matter and time is like an engorged, as it were "perverted" *bump* in this unleashing of potential which is endless.

    Hope that somewhat makes more sense.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: An Endless Potential State

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    "Atemporal" means time not as we know it. It isn't some sort of halt, or frozen static state. Instead it simply isn't limited to our moment-by-moment way of parsing experience.
    The above is a definition or atleast a description by negation. A negative description of time is difficult to grasp. It may not even make sense.

    This is why, I tend to favour the Nyaya point on this. For the Nyaya, time and space AS WE KNOW THEM are causal factors in every change, motion, transformation, movement, etc. No time? No change. No cause, no effect. No space? No change. No cause, no effect.

  5. #5

    Re: An Endless Potential State

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    The above is a definition or atleast a description by negation. A negative description of time is difficult to grasp. It may not even make sense.

    This is why, I tend to favour the Nyaya point on this. For the Nyaya, time and space AS WE KNOW THEM are causal factors in every change, motion, transformation, movement, etc. No time? No change. No cause, no effect. No space? No change. No cause, no effect.
    I'm not sure if this is coherent. But can you imagine time passing infinitely fast? The thing is, our mind individuates events in such a way that time is made to flow according to the state of our consciousness. This makes practical sense. When you are in joy or ecstasy, time flies. When you are bored or sorrowful, time becomes incomparably slowed.

    How do we experience time when we are liberated from the body, what to say of getting an ecstatic high from some earthly pleasure?

    One of my spiritual commitments is to spiritual variegatedness. I cannot imagine how this could possibly be if there is no change or activity in some form. Perhaps it is faith on my part, but alas that is one of my commitments I feel and think just has to be true.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: An Endless Potential State

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    I'm not sure if this is coherent. But can you imagine time passing infinitely fast? The thing is, our mind individuates events in such a way that time is made to flow according to the state of our consciousness. This makes practical sense. When you are in joy or ecstasy, time flies. When you are bored or sorrowful, time becomes incomparably slowed.

    How do we experience time when we are liberated from the body, what to say of getting an ecstatic high from some earthly pleasure?
    The issue with time flowing infinitely fast [from the POV of God] is that essentially, everything is simultaneous. Even in this case, normal cause and effect are irrelevant. For cause and effect to make sense, cause HAS to temporally precede effect.

    While it is probably true that some portion of our experience of time is subjective and perceived, at the background, there is always a clock that is ticking at the speed of 1 second per second. Whether we are with our loved ones or in a boring lecture at school, this clock continues to tick at the rate of 1 second per second. This clock time is what I refer to as absolute time.

    Keep in mind that absolute time is probably dependent on universal constants [force of gravitation, electron charge (?)] and other universal constants. But for a given universe, this rate doesnt change. For a universe elsewhere, time may tick faster than in our universe.

    I am guessing, in the state of liberation, we will continue to experience time. The rate of the flow of this time may be different from what we know on earth, but neither would time come to a standstill nor would it speed away at infinite speed.

  7. #7

    Re: An Endless Potential State

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    The issue with time flowing infinitely fast [from the POV of God] is that essentially, everything is simultaneous. Even in this case, normal cause and effect are irrelevant. For cause and effect to make sense, cause HAS to temporally precede effect.
    Really? Couldn't you simply say that the cause logically precedes the effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    While it is probably true that some portion of our experience of time is subjective and perceived, at the background, there is always a clock that is ticking at the speed of 1 second per second. Whether we are with our loved ones or in a boring lecture at school, this clock continues to tick at the rate of 1 second per second. This clock time is what I refer to as absolute time.
    I don't think that's what I'm disputing, necessarily. I mean, sure, there is succession. But the way this succession is perceived varies, does it not? I don't see how we could know the measure of absolute time.

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Keep in mind that absolute time is probably dependent on universal constants [force of gravitation, electron charge (?)] and other universal constants. But for a given universe, this rate doesnt change. For a universe elsewhere, time may tick faster than in our universe.
    I still am not sure how you could find a baseline to judge. I've been thinking about trying to learn more physics, though. I think time is fast becoming one of my favorite subjects.

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    I am guessing, in the state of liberation, we will continue to experience time. The rate of the flow of this time may be different from what we know on earth, but neither would time come to a standstill nor would it speed away at infinite speed.
    Altogether, this is where I can in some ways accept, that things become truly indecipherable. We just don't know. All I can do is trust Krsna that things will not just be boring and static on the other side of paradise.

    What about fitting infinities inside even bigger infinities? Couldn't that work?

    Alas, I am speculating. Gotta watch for that.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: An Endless Potential State

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    Really? Couldn't you simply say that the cause logically precedes the effect?
    I cannot see how. This also doesnt seem to be due to epistemological indeterminacy - something that can be solved by more knowledge. With simultaneity, there is a more fundamental problem with analyzing cause and effect.

    Think of the following example. You are given a pair of photographs. In one of the photos, I am standing next to a cushioned chair. The second photo of the pair shows the cushion squished and my sitting on it.

    Given ONLY this data, how do you logically decide what causes what? Does my sitting squish the cushion? Or does the squishing of the cushion cause my sitting on it? When time flows infinitely fast, i.e. all events are simultaneous, we cannot logically determine cause from effect. The universe could have caused God rather than the other way around.

    As regards the notion of absolute time, yes, even I am not sure how one can possibly measure it. But even if time is relative, time cannot possibly come to a complete standstill or flow infinitely fast. Both situations lead to incoherence.

    Perhaps a poster with more knowledge in relativity/quantum physics can help us out.

  9. #9

    Re: An Endless Potential State

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Think of the following example. You are given a pair of photographs. In one of the photos, I am standing next to a cushioned chair. The second photo of the pair shows the cushion squished and my sitting on it.

    Given ONLY this data, how do you logically decide what causes what? Does my sitting squish the cushion? Or does the squishing of the cushion cause my sitting on it? When time flows infinitely fast, i.e. all events are simultaneous, we cannot logically determine cause from effect. The universe could have caused God rather than the other way around.
    I still think there is a difference in my conception from the idea of simultaneity. I do not deny that there is succession. Logically, the body or weight must come first in order to form the impression on a bed or cushion. We do not ever witness cushions sucking people's behinds into them, so it is intuitive that that is not the case. If time moved backwards, then possibly the latter could be so, but there is no evidence for that.

    So, all I can say is that I do not deny succession or series. I do not deny constant conjunction where A is if B. Not B if A.

    But then again I'm no expert.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: An Endless Potential State

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet
    I do not deny that there is succession.
    My point is, IF things are simultaneous [i.e. if time moves infinitely fast], there is NO succession. Everything happens together. Time could be compressed [for instance, when you "fast forward" a video of a movie] but if time flows infinitely fast, you ate the popcorn, the movie started and the movie finished at the same time. When things happen at the same time, neither one causes the other. All of them are caused by an event that preceded them temporally. So, if there was a prior moment in time that precedes another moment in time, time does not move infinitely fast.

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