Reincarnation doctrine question

[Ashoka]

Namaste.
I am new to the study of Hinduism and hope to find a home here, as I find it quite welcoming.
One reason that I am investigating Hinduism is that I have found that I am unable to believe some of the basic beliefs of other faiths, such as Hell and eternal punishment as well as some other things I won't distract you with here.
So, as I study Hinduism I want to understand it thoroughly so that I can know whether I am able to assent to its teachings.
This brings me to the first thing in Hinduism which I may need to be convinced of: Reincarnation.
My understanding is that a belief in reincarnation is one of few necessary or mandatory beliefs for the Hindu.
Now, reincarnation makes sense as opposed to eternal damnation such as we find in Christianity and some sects of Judaism: rather than being punished forever, we are allowed/required to keep coming back in fleshly form so as to burn away karmas/learn lessons which we failed to fully learn/integrate while in our earthly forms.
It makes sense, but this doesn't necessarily make it so. Could you please share with me the Hindu basis for a belief in reincarnation?
Thank you in advance for your assistance.
Aum namah shivaya.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Ashoka: I can think of two very good reasons personally, and a bunch more reasons as well. One is that the sages and saints which most of us respect immensely for their wisdom have told us it is true. Not just a guru here or there, but many hundreds of wise men through the ages.

The second is a mystical sense of its truth or even actual memories of previous lives. You may say this is due to some vivid imagination, but for some people these memories are as vivid as if they happened yesterday. There are also mystical signs to observe in watching your own children, and distinguishing who they were.

BTW, most of us just take it for granted, and it isn't even a point for discussion.

Aum Namasivaya

[sanjaya]

Well I wasn't aware that there are mandatory beliefs in Hinduism, or that we're in the business of formulating "doctrine." But yes, reincarnation is taught in Hinduism.

Now, when you ask for the basis of our belief in reincarnation, do you mean to inquire as to an empirical basis, in the sense of something that can be tested for accuracy? Or are you asking for the origin of this theology? If the latter, then I could point to any number of Hindu Scriptures. The Bhagavad Gita, however, is a fairly concise summary of Hindu teaching, and says in many places that souls return to the world through reincarnation. It's pretty fundamental to Sri Krishna's message from the opening chapters, in which he explains that though the soul passes through many different lives, it is in some sense unaffected by any of them. If one were to reject the idea of reincarnation of the soul, much of the Gita's philosophy would be meaningless.

Now if you're asking for an empirical basis for reincarnation, then I'm not sure that I can give one. Like many spiritual truths, I don't know that reincarnation is falsifiable when treated as a scientific theory. Yes, there are people who claim they can remember former lives, but I find these claims to be rather dubious, since they are made by individuals who (at least on the surface) do not appear any more enlightened than the rest of us. There are Hindu saints who are able to tell devotees various things about their former lives. I believe these accounts. But here, believing these saints is a matter of faith, and I don't see any obvious way that it can be tested.

Just my personal opinion here, but I wouldn't work too hard to try and factually verify reincarnation as a means to choosing your religion. In Hinduism it's sometimes said that faith in God only comes by God's grace, and if our karma merits it. Unless God wills it, the thought of seeking him won't even enter your mind. And if he does, then you will become his devotee whether you wish to or not. It's best, I think, to merely surrender to God's will, as Sri Krishna teaches in the Gita.

[Ashoka]

Thank you Eastern Mind and sanjaya for your thoughtful replies.
When I was a Catholic Christian, I believed many things simply because they were what was taught by the Church authorities. Now I believe that many of those things that I once believed are false and even harmful. I am therefore seeking to avoid taking anything on blind faith in the future.

1. Sometimes when I am considering the idea of reincarnation, I think maybe that the idea was invented because it is the only way to try to make sense of suffering that would otherwise seem undeserved. For example, a very young child is abused and/or killed. Why would God allow such suffering from such a young one who obviously could have done nothing to have deserved such pain? Well, the only way to have it make sense is to say that the child must have earned such suffering while in a past life.

2. It seems to me that suffering in your present life in order to make amends for wrongs done by you in a past life only makes sense if you can remember your past life. Otherwise, it's as though I walked up to my son and grounded him. When he looks at me, confused, and asks me what he did to deserve the punishment, I then tell him that it is for something he did last year that he must have forgotten about.
And then the next day I tell him that he cannot have dessert after dinner because of something else he did wrong last year. He will likely say, "But I can't even remember what I did wrong - how can I know to avoid doing it again?" I can then reply that he should strive to do no wrong at all and that the punishments will continue until he reaches self-realization.
The punishment will not be effective because he can't even remember what he did wrong.


I hope not to sound disrespectful, I am only sharing my thoughts as I try to better understand.

[Ashoka]

Well I wasn't aware that there are mandatory beliefs in Hinduism, or that we're in the business of formulating "doctrine." But yes, reincarnation is taught in Hinduism.

No offense was intended and I may be misusing some words. I was reading a book which attempted to define Hinduism for the beginner. The book explained that there are many different beliefs in Hinduism and tried to put together a definition which included beliefs held by all Hindus. Reincarnation was one of those beliefs.

Aum nama sivaya.

[ScottMalaysia]

There have been quite a number of cases where children spontaneously remember details of their past lives, which when checked turn out to be true. There was one boy who seemed to know a lot about planes, and he later said that he was a pilot in his previous life who crashed during World War 2 at the Battle of Iwo Jima. His father checked the details and found that there was one American pilot who crashed during the Battle of Iwo Jima, in exactly the same manner as the boy had said.

Reincarnation is the only afterlife theory with any scientific evidence to prove it. How else could the boy have known all the details about the pilot? There have been other cases like this as well.

[Eastern Mind]

This brings me to the first thing in Hinduism which I may need to be convinced of: Reincarnation.

Vannakkam: After re-reading your post, this part really caught my eye. By convincing, I believe it implies an intellectual process, no? But so much of our religion isn't intellectual at all. Take bhakti, for instance, either at home, or at temples. If you go to a temple and 100 000 people are lined up for a chance of 3 seconds in front of a murthi, (darshan) its really pretty hard to explain intellectually. Cremation of the dead, bowing before God, giving to the poor, working for work's sake, genders sitting apart, various rituals of priests like havan, chanting of the names of God, japa with a particular mantram, modest dress, and so much more isn't intellectual at all. It's just a way of life practiced for hundreds of years. Do we need to be convinced that a river flows east instead of west?

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�


The kaṭha upaniṣad 2.2.10 tells us the following:

As vāyu (air), though one, entering the world assumes forms corresponding to every form so the One is the antarātmā �(inner substance or Being) of all things, corresponding to every form,
and also existing outside of them.

If we take this be true, then who goes from body to body? What then is this śarīra ( body, the destructable) as it comes and goes?
We are deha ( having a body) , having form or shape. Yet we are also recognized as dehina by the kaṭha upaniṣad , defined as 'enveloped in the body' or 'embodied ones'.
The body is the chariot , the rider in the chariot? the Self.

praṇām

1. antarātmā or antara + ātmā antara = interior,lying within ; heart, soul + ātmā = ātman = soul, Spirit.

[saidevo]

namaste Ashoka.

• Empiricial proofs of reincarnation do exist. Two sample links:

"I Have Lived Before: The True Story of the Reincarnation of Shanti Devi" by Sture Lonnerstrand
http://www.circlesoflight.com/past-l...anti-devi.html

Scientific Proof of Reincarnation: Dr.Ian Stevenson's Life Work
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm

• Once a Christian woman from the West called on the sage KAnchi ParamAchArya, and sought some proof for reincarnation. The ShankarAchArya asked an assistant to take her to a hospital maternity ward and let her have a look at the scores of newborn babies. Without further question, the woman was convinced that there could be no other explanation for the physical defects that some babies born to normal parents incurred right on their birth.

• A google image search of 'deformed babies' displays an array of horrific results. What accounts for the monstrous physical defects of babies? Is God a revengeful autocrat that he punishes some souls with hideous consequents and let others go scot-free?

• Among normal babies, some quickly become child prodigies, while many grow as dunces. Even in a single family we find one child good and obedient and the other incorrigibly naughty, prone to vices, although they both grow in the same family atmosphere. What accounts for such behaviour of chidren born to normal parents?

• UpaniShads, which are part of the Vedas, and Bhagavad GItA talk about reincarnation. Hindu PurANas are full of stories of earlier births of its characters.

• CW Leadbeater, a Christian Bishop, and a popular exponent of Theosophy, begins his book 'How Theosophy Came to Me' thus:

"My first touch with anything that could definitely be called Theosophy was in the year 504 b.c., when I had the wonderful honour and pleasure of visiting the great philosopher Pythagoras. I had taken birth in one of the families of the Eupatrid� at Athens—a family in fairly good circumstances and offering favourable opportunities for progress. This visit was the most important event in my youth, and it came about in this manner..."

Thus, karma and reincarnation are universal spiritual laws that cut across religious beliefs.

[alwaysprosperous]

If one isn't religious at all (atheist/agnostic), and lives a life filled witheither Good/bad deeds, does one still reincarnate?

I was wondering this but didn't really want to post a whole thread about it.