The 5th Veda - Mahabharata

[LALKAR]

Namaste Eastern Mind

Mahabharat is not 5th Ved Gita is the combination of all Veds
and teachings of Bhīṣma is also much Vedic

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté EM,

Yajvan: This is just a question of curiousity. I am wondering who termed the Mahabharata the fifth Veda. Perhaps this is a bit of history that is not known. Over time it just happened. Do you know? Aum Namasivaya

Here is some information for your consideration. An early reference i.e. itihāsapurāṇaṃ pañcamaṃ vedānāṃ is called out in the Chāndogya Upaniṣad (7.1.2); It reads like this (Nārada is speaking to Sanatkumāra-ji); Revered sir I have learned the ṛgveda, yajurveda, samāveda, the atharvaveda the 4th, the itihāsa-s and purāṇa-s as the 5th veda, etc. etc.

The Mahābhārata is classified as itihāsa¹ (history) , and hence Nārada's reference to it as the 5th.

Another reference is in the Mahābhārata itself. Ādi (first) Parva (division or section) , says the following: The learned man who recites to others this veda of Vyāsa (Kṛṣṇa Dvaipāyana) reaps advantage.

Hence the epithet of it considered a 5th veda.

"Whatever is here ( in the Mahābhārata) is found elsewhere. But whatever is not here (in the Mahābhārata) is nowhere else."

praṇām

itihāsa इतिहास 'so it was' ; talk , legend , tradition , history , traditional accounts of former events , heroic history

[Eastern Mind]

Yajvan: Thanks. I did read a condensed version a long time ago. Still have it around somewhere. But frankly, I found it a bit too full of characters, like 'Dr. Zhivago', or 'War and Peace'. Oh well. It was kind of hard to follow.

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté EM

Yajvan: Thanks. I did read a condensed version a long time ago. Still have it around somewhere. But frankly, I found it a bit too full of characters, like 'Dr. Zhivago', or 'War and Peace'. Oh well. It was kind of hard to follow. Aum Namasivaya

Yes, I know what you say. It is good to first read an abbreviated version, then look to the full version when you have interest. I have find this as a road-map approach. IF one tries to read the total Mahābhārata IMHO it is like trying to take a drink out of a fire hose!

I have been reading the full version for some time - (after reading the abbreviated version) ...it is like drinking good tea, its sipped a little at a time.

My simple concern is I cannot see past the words all the time - to the lessons. And the version I have which is considered the 'standard' for an English translation does not have transliteration so I can inspect each word to ferret out a deeper meaning.
I have found a few people that go deeper into the Mahābhārata , but not in aggregate. Perhaps we will be blessed with a śāstri on HDF that can address our deeper questions:

• Who in the Mahābhārata (of the main characters) other then Kṛṣṇa are enlightened beings ( other then the devatā visited)? It is my understanding the twins, nakūla and sahadeva were enlightened beings - yet I would not get this from my readings.
• The Mahābhārata covers all fields of life - can we take them one at a time and offer the lesson for each?
• Why a blind King , Dhṛtarāṣṭra? What quality does he represent?
• And the significance of Duryodhana ? What deeper lessons of our being does he represent?
• Other then the Bhāgavad gītā, are there major lessons that deal with mokṣa?

These are a few of many I ponder.

praṇām

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast�

Who in the Mahābhārata (of the main characters) other then Kṛṣṇa are enlightened beings ( other then the devatā visited)? It is my understanding the twins, nakūla and sahadeva were enlightened beings - yet I would not get this from my readings.

• The Mahābhārata covers all fields of life - can we take them one at a time and offer the lesson for each?
• Why a blind King , Dhṛtarāṣṭra? What quality does he represent?
• And the significance of Duryodhana ? What deeper lessons of our being does he represent?
• Other then the Bhāgavad gītā, are there major lessons that deal with mokṣa?

These are a few of many I ponder.

For those that are reading this epic, Paramahaṃsa Nityānanda-ji offers some relevent insights into the Mahābhārata. He gives a deeper understanding of the main characters, and what qualities they represent. http://www.youtube.com/user/LifeBlissFoundation#p/f/11/yfvF4BPrIdk

Perhaps a few of you may have interest

praṇām

[lmanzo]

What do you think is the symbolic meaning of Devavrata shooting arrows into his mother Ganga?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I have found a few people that go deeper into the Mahābhārata , but not in aggregate. Perhaps we will be blessed with a śāstri on HDF that can address our deeper questions:

The very first words of the Mahābhārata that begins with the adi parva says the following:

oṃ
nārāyaṇaṃ namaskṛtya naraṃ caiva narottamam
devīṃ sarasvatīṃ caiva tato jayam udīrayet

this says , having bowed down to nārāyaṇa and nara,
the most exalted male being and to devī sarasvatī must
the word jaya be uttered

This is then repeated as the first uvāca ( vāc or sound, speech, voice) for each avāhana (invocation , invitation , inviting, calling) for the following 17 parvan's¹, 18 in all.

So my question is , why so? Why did veda vyāsa-ji take to this method? ( just to inform you, I do not know the depth and breath to this question myself)

This word jaya is quite interesting. We know it used most often as hail ! Its root is ji meaning winning, conquering; the notion of victory and , triumph.
Yet it has a multitude of other meanings - one is a name for arjuna (son of pāṇḍu), the sun, an an attendant of viṣṇu , of yudhiṣṭhira at virāṭa's court , and several more definitions.

What is the significance? Why must this word be uttered? Is it for the sake of victory? If it were to be another name for arjuna , he is called out already as nara and kṛṣṇa-ji as nārāyaṇa.

Could it be ja in jaya ? Ja is 'birth' and each chapter/division/parvan is the 'birth' of new wisdom , hence Jaya inclusive of ja is uttered for success in the chapter offered, after first recognizing nārāyaṇa, nara and sarasvatī.

Any thoughts on this matter?

praṇām

words
parvan - a division or section. It is also a knot , joint ; limb , member

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�


I wrote in a recent post:

The bhāghavataṁ says that there are only twelve men in the whole world who know the ins and outs of dharma in all its subtlety. These twelve are: Brahmā, the Creator; Narada, the roving sage; Lord Śiva; Lord Subrahmaṇya; the sage Kapila; Manu the law-giver; the boy-devotee Prahlada; King Janaka; bhīṣma ; King Bali; the boy-sage Suka, the reciter of the bhAgavatam; and Yama, the Lord of Death and Dispenser of Justice.
Thus bhīṣma happens to be one of the twelve most knowledgeable people on dharma. It was fitting therefore that when Yudhiṣṭhira, at the end of the mahabharata war wanted to know all the subtleties of all the different types of dharma, he was directed to go to bhīṣma by Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself.

We know bhīṣma is extremely wise. For me reading the mahābhārata the most insightful wisdom comes from the chapters ( parvan) where bhīṣma-ji is discoursing with yudhiṣṭhira on puruṣārtha (the 4 areas of life) i.e. artha , acquirement of wealth; kāma , the gratification/fulfillment of desire ; dharma , discharge of duty ; mokṣa or liberation, the realization of the Supreme.

Yet that said, one must be cognizant of bhīṣma and the relationship to Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself. On his death bed of arrows, with 56 days remaining left on this earth, much takes place.

Kṛṣṇa-ji says to yudhiṣṭhira the king, bhīṣma lying on a bed of arrows is thinking of me. My mind was concentrated on him ( as yudhiṣṭhira went to Kṛṣṇa-ji's room and found him in stillness, withdrawn within). He tells yudhiṣṭhira to go to him and question him as he knows the past , present and future, duty, etc.

So they both (and others) go to bhīṣma-ji. Upon arriving bhīṣma offers the highest praises and salutations to the Lord. In return the Lord infuses/bestows upon him the knowledge of past, present and future knowledge. He also removes bhīṣma-ji's pain and discomfort, and infuses celestial vision upon him. With that the group that was there said we will return tomorrow and yudhiṣṭhira will begin the questions.

Upon their return it is Kṛṣṇa-ji that addresses bhīṣma-ji first, as requested by yudhiṣṭhira to 'speak first'. In his speaking He points out this most salient point:
O' bhīṣma what ever you wish to say onto the enquiring son of paṇḍu ( yudhiṣṭhira ) will be regarded on earth to be as authoritative as the declarations of the veda.

The beauty here as I see it is, Kṛṣṇa is looking to remove the grief from yudhiṣṭhira and chooses one of his devotees that is most wise to do this , bhīṣma-ji. He prepares bhīṣma-ji accordingly e.g. removing pain, doubts , etc. And He informs us all that this knowledge/discourse will benefit all and is as authoritative as the veda.
He says it this way: That person who will conduct himself according to the authority of thy (bhīṣma-ji's) declarations will obtain the reward of every meritorious act.

It is from this conversation that one can make the decision to read this part of the mahābhārata and gain insights and ideas into proper behavior, duty, etc.
Said another way, the mahābhārata is a distillation of the veda-s. For one that wishes to understand the ved and upaniṣad-s can look to this work as a perfect adjunct.
There are part of the mahābhārata's symbols I am still perplexed by, yet reading the discourse of yudhiṣṭhira & bhīṣma-ji have been quite rewarding.

praṇām

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

The mahābhārata tells us hostility springs from 5 causes ( or sources ) :

• women ( fighting over ownership, arguments between 2)
• land - how much, who owns it, property lines, etc.
• harsh words
• natural incompatibilities ( the mouse and the cat)
• injury

It seems to me that all can be wrapped up in the last item - injury. It seems to me that each in the list brings some level of injury by word, deed or action and one is bruised in the heart, the mind, or in the flesh.

Even though one may forgive another, feelings of anomosity lie hidden like fire wood. Confidence in friendship is lost.

I have seen this occur on several occasions amd know this to be true.

praṇām

[vcindiana]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

injury
It seems to me that all can be wrapped up in the last item - injury. It seems to me that each in the list brings some level of injury by word, deed or action and one is bruised in the heart, the mind, or in the flesh.

Even though one may forgive another, feelings of anomosity lie hidden like fire wood. Confidence in friendship is lost.

I have seen this occur on several occasions amd know this to be true.

praṇām

Dear Yaj:

Terrorism what we more and more witness nowadays is the result of hostility and as you mentioned it is in turn the result of an injury. But an injury not necessarily brings on hostility unless there is fear. It is the fear of loosing my belongings, my prestige, my worth, my religion, my convictions, my belief, my faith etc... etc..,. People who forgive are not fearful. I wonder what Bhishma says about fear.

Love...... VC