Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 29

Thread: Jesus of History

  1. #11

    Re: Jesus of History

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste Pretnath.



    Under the pseudo-secular government ruling India at the Centre and in the States, the conversion activities of Christian missionaries are at their peak, targetting not just the poor and backward caste Hindus but wealthy and educated Hindus too. The net of mAyA they and the western scholars cast is so widespread that many Hindus are led to believe that mainstay popular scriptures like Ramayana and Mahabharata are just mythological stories--not like the Gospel truth of the Bible whose every word about the life of Jesus is true.

    This thread is a repository for the discerning Hindu to understand that Jesus Christ, the supposed founder of Christianity himself is not a historical figure as many Indian and Western scholars are discovering with hard evidence. If the Hindus realize that Jesus is not all that he is made out to be in the Christian scriptures and dogma, and they spread this message to their brethren, then this knowledge would serve as an effective weapon against the onslaught of their religion and culture. So you don't have to take offence at the bare opinions and evidential facts laid out in this thread.
    Pranam,
    To say that Jesus is the founder of Christianity is incorrect. It has been proven that the gospels were written 5 to 10 years after the death of Jesus. The real founder of Christianity is Paul, aka, Saul. The Bible says that Paul/Saul used to persecute Christians. Then one day he saw the light. The Light was Christ and It talked to Paul/Saul.

    Jesus was an updated version of Moses who was an updated version of Abraham. Most of what's written in the Bible was taken from other scriptures. It is also a proven fact that the Vedas are the oldest scriptures on Earth.

    If you want to educate Indians on the "illusion" of Christianity then research Paul. Oh and don't forget Emperor Constantine as well as King James. Constanine declared Christianity the main religion because he prayed to Jesus (the Prince of Peace)to let him win his war. King James funded the King James version of the Bible which at one time was the most popular. King James as a young man could not wait for the Queen (his own mother)to be beheaded so that he could be King. Not once before or after did he protest the beheading.

    You will know a seed by the fruit it produces.

    Actually, you don't have to do any research. Just look at what Christianity has become; BIG BUSINESS.

    Terrorism, murder, wars (mass murder), rape, manipulation, extortion, lust, greed, slavery, etc, etc are characteristics of asuras. Christianity is the religion of asuras.

    Namaste,

  2. #12
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    369

    Re: Jesus of History

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiwaunis View Post
    Pranam,
    To say that Jesus is the founder of Christianity is incorrect. It has been proven that the gospels were written 5 to 10 years after the death of Jesus. You will know a seed by the fruit it produces.

    Actually, you don't have to do any research. Just look at what Christianity has become; BIG BUSINESS.

    Terrorism, murder, wars (mass murder), rape, manipulation, extortion, lust, greed, slavery, etc, etc are characteristics of asuras. Christianity is the religion of asuras.

    Namaste,
    Namaste Hiwaunis,

    Although this is an emotional subject, I wish to point out that Jnani is silent and does not write or speak as Advaita. Only using the Prakritic mAyA can be spoken or written. But the Jnani is indeed the controller of mAyA though it is at not apparent to us, who do not even understand how motivations take birth in every heart yet we fight over "I-Me-Mine".

    So, a scripture has to be shruti -- the revealed words. And Hindu leaders do not doubt the value of Bible as Shruti. At least I have not heard or read sages such as Shankarcharyas, Shri Ramana, Shri Ramakrishna, Shri Vivekananda or for that matter any known Self Realised Guru to teach that Bible teaches falsehood.

    I agree that religion, which has power over the masses, is exploited to the hilt by the powerful (rajasic) for their own benefit. No doubt, most so-called christian rajahs who amassed Christianity are those who passionately killed their so-called beloved Jesus also. No doubt that streaks of the violence that made them kill Jesus also colors their actions. Similarly, Mullahs who wrongly preach violence have violence in their Minds. No doubt about the historical facts that you have listed. I believe that the characteristic of a religion partakes the gunas prevalent therein.


    Yet to say that God is unaware or that God has no control over these asuras is little beyond me. An Upanishad says that same scripture given to three classes of beings are understood and acted upon by in different ways. The truth is OM, everywhere and at all times yet, the understanding and the actions are as per the prevailing guna structure.

    Om

    Regarding historicity of a character, Self realised Gurus say that what exists as knowledge must also exist as gross reality and what exists as gross reality must have its spiritual reality. About time the Jnanis say that Jesus exists now as Vasista exists now.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Jesus of History

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Although this is an emotional subject, I wish to point out that Jnani is silent and does not write or speak as Advaita. Only using the Prakritic mAyA can be spoken or written. But the Jnani is indeed the controller of mAyA though it is at not apparent to us, who do not even understand how motivations take birth in every heart yet we fight over "I-Me-Mine".

    So, a scripture has to be shruti -- the revealed words. And Hindu leaders do not doubt the value of Bible as Shruti. At least I have not heard or read sages such as Shankarcharyas, Shri Ramana, Shri Ramakrishna, Shri Vivekananda or for that matter any known Self Realised Guru to teach that Bible teaches falsehood.

    Regarding historicity of a character, Self realised Gurus say that what exists as knowledge must also exist as gross reality and what exists as gross reality must have its spiritual reality. About time the Jnanis say that Jesus exists now as Vasista exists now.
    Excellent Atanu ! I bow to your noble thoughts. My thoughts are similar to yours.

    Regards,

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  4. #14
    Join Date
    August 2006
    Age
    72
    Posts
    3,162
    Rep Power
    1915

    Re: Jesus of History

    Namaste Atanu.

    My outlook of the Western religions is more of a 'look out' than 'look in'. It does commensurate with my own 'guNas' but the silver lining is that I am aware--though only intellectually--of the extent of my ignorance, perhaps as much as an actor playing an insipid role is aware of it. And I hope that in some future birth I will be given the role of a sage so I can feel, act and speak wisdom. So here is my thinking on some of your points on the subject:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiwaunis View Post
    Terrorism, murder, wars (mass murder), rape, manipulation, extortion, lust, greed, slavery, etc, etc are characteristics of asuras. Christianity is the religion of asuras.
    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Yet to say that God is unaware or that God has no control over these asuras is little beyond me.
    I don't think what Hiawaunis has observed amounts to saying "that God is unaware or that God has no control". I don't agree that Christianity is a religion of asuras but I do find some asuric--and a lot of shallow--teachings in Christianity and Islam, which inhibit the 'sAdhana' of their well-meaning followers.

    In the earlier three Yugas, devas, asuras and humans were distinct races so it was easy for the humans to recognize them. In this Kali Yuga, however, the devas and asuras are inherent in humans--in fact in everyone of us--with varying degrees.

    When some humans of one faith cannot care less for the faith of other humans and seek to destroy their religion and culture, with well-documented quotes from their own scriptures, it is not unwise, impropriety or ignorance to react to it with words and action. If their violence is scripted in God's universal drama, so is our chosen reaction--and chosen inaction. The chosen inaction might be full of wisdom but wisdom is not certainly absent in the chosen reaction, IMO.

    There is a story that a Vaishnavite king Vlshnuvardhana, of the Hoysalas was greatly incensed at the doctrine of mAyA taught by the then Sankaracharya of Sringeri. He invited the sage to his palace and let loose an elephant to 'teach the sage a lesson'. Of course, the sage ran for his life as predicted. When the King asked the sage why he ran for his life when the elephant was only an illusion, the sage replied that his running too was an illusion!

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    No doubt that streaks of the violence that made them kill Jesus also colors their actions. Similarly, Mullahs who wrongly preach violence have violence in their Minds. No doubt about the historical facts that you have listed. I believe that the characteristic of a religion partakes the gunas prevalent therein.
    The 'guNas' that sparked violence by the Christians and Muslims are still prevalent, sparking the same violence, overtly and covertly, even now. The people to whom the 'guNas' belong would never change or be allowed to change themselves with the realization that after all the world is a mental illusion so it would be wise to mind their own business and let others mind their own--of seeking the truth in their own way.

    If the predominantly 'satvic guNa' in the Hindus gets stained/strained by the Hindu reactions to the religious violence perpetrated on them from all quarters and in all areas of life, it is also a part of the divine play, IMO.

    Plainly speaking, when some Christians and Muslims revile our religion and speak and write obnoxious things about Hindu gods, scriptures and sages, there is nothing wrong in finding faults in their religion, specially when it it is done not with the feeling of revulsion but with the genuine intention of educating fellow Hindus and possibly some people of the offensive faiths too.

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    About time the Jnanis say that Jesus exists now as Vasista exists now.
    Although I think that Jesus does not exist historically, I don't mind Jesus existing mythologically or to think that he exists now, but I do believe that he is not the Jesus--just like the God of Reality is not Personal God--portrayed in the Bible. JnAnis would only say as much and it is for us to work out the details.

    I have compiled what some of our Hindu sages felt and said on Christianity in a separate post to follow.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  5. #15
    Join Date
    August 2006
    Age
    72
    Posts
    3,162
    Rep Power
    1915

    Re: Jesus of History

    What some Hindu sages said about Christianity
    RamaNa Maharshi

    RamaNa Maharshi gave the proper perspective that Christians should have about their religion. How many of them, specially among the clergy, have that perspective or even willing to understand it? And how many Christians who know and understand it care--or dare--to spread the knowledge?

    Here is something that he said about Christianity. In the following passages 'M:' stands for 'Maharshi:' and 'D:' for the 'Devotee:'.

    Significance of the Christian faith

    From Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
    Sri Ramanasramam, Tiruvannamalai

    6th November, 1935
    Talk 86.

    The Master gave the true significance of the Christian faith thus:

    Christ is the ego.
    The Cross is the body.
    When the ego is crucified, and it perishes, what survives is the Absolute Being (God), (cf. "I and my Father are one") and this glorious survival is called Resurrection.

    **********

    Talk 90.
    Again, the Trinity was explained:

    God the Father represents Isvara
    God the Holy Spirit represents Atman
    God the Son represents Guru

    Isvaro gururatmeti murti bheda vibhagine vyomavad vyapta dehaya dakshinamurtaye namah:

    Meaning that God appears to his devotee in the form of a Guru (son of God) and points out to him the immanence of the Holy Spirit. That is to say that God is spirit, that this spirit is immanent everywhere and that the Self must be realised, which is the same as realising God.

    **********

    Talk 96.
    For example, an ordinary Christian will not be satisfied unless he is told that God is somewhere in the far-off Heavens not to be reached by us unaided. Christ alone knew Him and Christ alone can guide us. Worship Christ and be saved. If told the simple truth - “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you” - he is not satisfied and will read complex and far-fetched meanings in such statements. Mature minds alone can grasp the simple Truth in all its nakedness.

    **********

    A missionary's (wasted) tryst with the Truth

    Here is an incident that highlights the wantonly persistent ignorance, and the dogmatically arrogant religious attitude of a Christian Missionary who sought to interview RamaNa Maharshi. The quote is rather long but it does have a point that some people would not only never understand but go to any extent to impose their ignorance on others.

    From Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
    Sri Ramanasramam, Tiruvannamalai

    21st March, 1938
    Talk 476.

    Dr. Stanley Jones, a Christian missionary, visited Maharshi. He writes books and delivers lectures. He has two Asramams under his control in North India. He was accompanied by another gentleman and two ladies. He is at present writing a book On the Indian Road and wants to meet the spiritually great men in India so that he may collect material for the book. He desired to know how the Indian sages have proceeded and what they have found as their experience in divinity. So he asked questions. (This is only a short sketch of his interview).

    D.: What is your quest? What is the goal? How far have you progressed?
    M.: The goal is the same for all. But tell me why you should be in search of a goal? Why are you not content with the present condition?

    D.: Is there then no goal?
    M.: Not so. What makes you seek a goal? It is a counter-question to be answered by you.

    D.: I have my own ideas of these subjects. I want to know what Maharshi has to say.
    M.: Maharshi has no doubts to be cleared.

    D.: Well, I consider the goal to be the realisation by the lower mind of the higher mind so that the Kingdom of Heaven might endure here on earth. The lower mind is incomplete and it must be made perfect by realisation of the higher mind.

    M.: So then you admit a lower mind which is incomplete and which seeks realisation of the higher so that it may become perfect. Is that lower mind apart from the higher mind? Is it independent of the other?

    D.: The Kingdom of Heaven was brought down on Earth by Jesus Christ. I consider Him to be the Kingdom personified. I want everyone to realise the same. He said: "I am hungry with other men's hunger;" and so on. Mutual partnership in pleasure and pain is the Kingdom of Heaven. If that Kingdom is universalised everyone will feel at one with the rest.

    M.: You speak of the differences between the lower and the higher minds, pleasures and pains. What becomes of these differences in your sleep?

    D.: But I want to be wide awake.
    M.: Is this your wide awakened state? It is not. It is only a dream in your long sleep. All are in sleep, dreaming of the world and things and actions.

    D.: This is all Vedantic, I have no use for it. The existing differences are not imaginary. They are positive. However, what is that real waking? Can Maharshi tell us what he has found it to be?
    M.: Real waking lies beyond the three states of waking, dream and sleep.

    D.: I am really awake and know that I am not in sleep.
    M.: Real waking lies beyond the plane of differences.
    D.: What is the state of the world then?
    M.: Does the world come and tell you "I exist"?

    D.: No. But the people in the world tell me that the world needs spiritual, social and moral regeneration.
    M.: You see the world and the people in it. They are your thoughts. Can the world be apart from you?

    D.: I enter into it with love.
    M.: Before entering thus do you stand aloof?
    D.: I am identified with it and yet remaining apart. Now I came here to ask Maharshi and hear him. Why does he ask me questions?
    M.: Maharshi has replied. His reply amounts to this: Real waking does not involve differences.

    D.: Can such realisation be universalised?
    M.: Where are differences there? There are no individuals in it.
    D.: Have you reached the goal?
    M.: The goal cannot be anything apart from the Self nor can it be something to be gained afresh. If that were so, such goal cannot be abiding and permanent. What appears anew will also disappear. The goal must be eternal and within. Find it within yourself.

    D.: I want to know your experience.
    M.: Maharshi does not seek enlightenment. The question is of no use to the questioner. Whether I have realised or not, how does it affect the questioner?

    D.: Not so. Each one's experience has a human value in it and can be shared by others.
    M.: The problem must be solved by the questioner himself. The question is best directed to oneself.

    D.: I know the answer to the question.
    M.: Let us have it.
    D.: I was shown the Kingdom of Heaven twenty years ago. It was by God's grace only. I made no effort for it. I was happy. I want to universalise, moralise and socialise it. At the same time I want to know Maharshi's experience of the Divine.

    Mrs. Jinarajadasa intervened and spoke softly: We all agree that Maharshi has brought the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Why do you press him to answer your questions relating to his realisation? It is for you to seek and gain it. The questioner listened to her, argued slightly and resumed his questions to Maharshi. After one or two light questions, Major Chadwick spoke sternly: "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you," says the Bible.

    D.: How shall I realise it? Major Chadwick: Why do you ask Maharshi to realise it for you?
    D.: I do not. Major Chadwick: The Kingdom is within you. You should realise it.
    D.: It is within only for those who hear it. Major Chadwick: The Bible says within you, and adds no qualifications. The questioner felt his conversation was already too long and so retired after thanking Maharshi and others.

    RamaNa on the Bible

    Talk 77.
    The Master, while referring to the Bible for "Be still and know that I am God", Psalm 46, found in the Ecclesiastes. "There is one alone and there is no second" and "The wise man’s heart is at the right hand and a fool’s heart is at the left."

    **********

    Talk 164
    D.: May we read the Bible?
    M.: The Bible and the Gita are the same.

    D.: The Bible teaches that Man is born in sin.
    M.: The Man is sin. There was no man-sense in deep sleep. The bodythought brings out the idea of sin. The birth of thought is itself sin. To another question the Master said: Everyone sees only the Self. The divine forms are only like bubbles in the ocean of Reality, or like pictures moving on a screen.

    D.: The Bible says that the human soul may be lost.
    M.: The 'I-thought' is the ego and that is lost. The real 'I' is "I am That I Am."

    **********

    Talk 188.
    The essence of mind is only awareness or consciousness. When the ego, however, dominates it, it functions as the reasoning, thinking or sensing faculty. The cosmic mind being not limited by the ego, has nothing separate from itself and is therefore only aware. This is what the Bible means by "I am that I AM".

    **********

    Talk 201.
    D.: What about bringing down divine consciousness from above?

    M.: As if the same is not already in the Heart? “O Arjuna, I am in the expanse of the Heart,” says Sri Krishna “He who is in the sun, is also in this man”, says a mantra in the Upanishads. “The Kingdom of God is within”, says the Bible. All are thus agreed that God is within. What is to be brought down? From where? Who is to bring what, and why?

    Realisation is only the removal of obstacles to the recognition of the eternal, immanent Reality. Reality is. It need not be taken from place to place.

    **********

    Talk 426.
    D.: What is meant by taking the name of God? How to reconcile the
    following two ideas?

    The Bible says: "Do not take the name of God in vain."
    The Hindu sastras enjoin taking the name of God all the time.

    M.: One should not use the name of God artificially and superficially without feeling. To use the name of God one must call upon Him and surrender to Him unreservedly. After such surrender the name of God is constantly with the man.

    **********

    Talk 436.
    M: In the Bible God says "I AM before Abraham." He does not say "I was" but "I AM."

    **********

    Talk 591.
    D.: But a dog-consciousness is different from my consciousness. I cannot read the Bible to the dog. The tree again does not move whereas I move and act.

    M.: Call the tree a standing man; and call the man a moving tree.

    **********

    Talk 601.
    D.: 'I am a man' is so obvious whereas 'I am That' is not understood by us.
    M.: You are neither That nor This. The truth is 'I am'. "I AM that I AM" according to the Bible also. Mere Being is alone natural. To limit it to 'being a man' is uncalled for.

    D.: (Humorously) If votes be taken the majority will be on my side.
    (Laughter)
    M.: I cast my vote also on your side (Laughter). I say also 'I am a man': but I am not limited to the body. It is IN ME. That is the difference.

    **********

    What a great place this world will be if the Christian clergy made sincere efforts to study their own scriptures in the light of the above revelations, instead of harping upon their evangelical Bible quotes!
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  6. #16
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    369

    Re: Jesus of History

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste Atanu.

    My outlook of the Western religions is more of a 'look out' than 'look in'.
    Namaste saidevo ji,

    Your outlook is balanced and wise. I try to remember the following to keep myself in reigns but not any other. Often, however, prakritic causes draw in so-called others, with whom some churning takes place.

    IV-1: May that Divine Being, who, though Himself colourless, gives rise to various colours in different ways with the help of His own power, for His own inscrutable purpose, and who dissolves the whole world in Himself in the end may He endow us with good thoughts !
    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    187
    Rep Power
    241

    Re: Jesus of History

    One of the most important historians of the time was a Jew called Josephus who was involved in a rebellion against the Romans which he documented in his book The Jewish War:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

    He may have briefly mentioned Jesus in passing. If so, it indicates that Jesus was, at the time an insignificant personality:
    Josephus includes information about individuals, groups, customs and geographical places. His writings provide a significant, extra-Biblical account of the post-Exilic period of the Maccabees, the Hasmonean dynasty, and the rise of Herod the Great. He makes references to the Sadducees, Jewish High Priests of the time, Pharisees and Essenes, the Herodian Temple, Quirinius' census and the Zealots, and to such figures as Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, Agrippa I and Agrippa II, John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, and a disputed reference to Jesus. He is an important source for studies of immediate post-Temple Judaism (and, thus, the context of early Christianity).

  8. #18
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Jesus of History

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    What some Hindu sages said about Christianity
    RamaNa Maharshi
    Namaste Saidevoji,

    Thanks for posting this nice collection.

    Regards
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #19
    Join Date
    August 2006
    Age
    72
    Posts
    3,162
    Rep Power
    1915

    Re: Jesus of History

    What some Hindu sages said about Christianity
    Ramakrishna Paramahansa

    Both RamaNa Maharshi and Ramakrishna Paramahansa were not well educated in the worldly sense. Although both of them were always immersed in the Self, while RamaNa spoke about the limitations of the paths of religions and how to overcome them, to Ramakrishna everything and everyone was right, so long as the goal was God and His name. Yet Ramakrishna condemned bigotry in his own subtle ways when he happened to speak about them.

    From The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

    Bigotry condemned (pp 20-21)

    Sri Ramakrishna was talking to Kali, the Divine Mother of the Universe. He said: "Mother, everyone says, 'My watch alone is right.' The Christians, the Brahmos, the Hindus, the Mussalmans, all say, 'My religion alone is true.' But, Mother, the fact is that nobody's watch is right. Who can truly understand Thee? But if a man prays to Thee with a yearning heart, he can reach Thee, through Thy grace, by any path. Mother, show me some time how the Christians pray to Thee in their churches. But Mother, what will people say if I go in? Suppose they make a fuss! Suppose they don't allow me to enter the Kali temple again! Well then, show me the Christian worship from the door of the church."

    **********

    page 62:
    "I had to practise each religion for a time – Hinduism, Islam, Christianity. Furthermore, I followed the paths of the Saktas, Vaishnavas, and Vedantists. 1 realized that there is only one God toward whom all are travelling; but the paths are different."

    **********

    page 73:
    "Once someone gave me a book of the Christians. I asked him to read it to
    me. It talked about nothing but sin. (To Keshab) Sin is the only thing one hears
    of at your Brahmo Samaj, too. The wretch who constantly says, 'I am bound, I
    am bound' only succeeds in being bound. He who says day and night, 'I am a
    sinner, I am a sinner' verily becomes a sinner."

    Redeeming power of faith

    "One should have such burning faith in God that one can say: 'What? I have repeated the name of God, and can sin still cling to me? How can I be a sinner any more? How can I be in bondage any more?'..."

    "Some people indulge in quarrels, saying, 'One cannot attain anything unless one worships our Krishna', or, 'Nothing can be gained without the worship of Kali, our Divine Mother', or, 'One cannot be saved without accepting the Christian religion.' This is pure dogmatism. The dogmatist says, 'My religion alone is true, and the religions of others are false.' This is a bad attitude. God can be reached by different paths.

    **********

    page 137:
    Dogmatism condemned

    (To the goswami) "With sincerity and earnestness one can realize God through all religions. The Vaishnavas will realize God, and so will the Saktas, the Vedantists, and the Brahmos. The Mussalmans and Christians will realize Him too. All will certainly realize God if they are earnest and sincere.

    **********
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  10. #20
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    369

    Re: Jesus of History

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    What some Hindu sages said about Christianity
    RamaNa Maharshi

    A missionary's (wasted) tryst with the Truth
    -
    D.: What is your quest? What is the goal? How far have you progressed?
    M.: The goal is the same for all. But tell me why you should be in search of a goal? Why are you not content with the present condition?

    D.: Is there then no goal?
    M.: Not so. What makes you seek a goal? It is a counter-question to be answered by you.

    D.: I have my own ideas of these subjects. I want to know what Maharshi has to say.
    M.: Maharshi has no doubts to be cleared.

    D.: Well, I consider the goal to be the realisation by the lower mind of the higher mind so that the Kingdom of Heaven might endure here on earth. The lower mind is incomplete and it must be made perfect by realisation of the higher mind.

    M.: So then you admit a lower mind which is incomplete and which seeks realisation of the higher so that it may become perfect. Is that lower mind apart from the higher mind? Is it independent of the other?

    D.: The Kingdom of Heaven was brought down on Earth by Jesus Christ. I consider Him to be the Kingdom personified. I want everyone to realise the same. He said: "I am hungry with other men's hunger;" and so on. Mutual partnership in pleasure and pain is the Kingdom of Heaven. If that Kingdom is universalised everyone will feel at one with the rest.

    M.: You speak of the differences between the lower and the higher minds, pleasures and pains. What becomes of these differences in your sleep?

    D.: But I want to be wide awake.
    M.: Is this your wide awakened state? It is not. It is only a dream in your long sleep. All are in sleep, dreaming of the world and things and actions.

    D.: This is all Vedantic, I have no use for it. The existing differences are not imaginary. They are positive. However, what is that real waking? Can Maharshi tell us what he has found it to be?
    M.: Real waking lies beyond the three states of waking, dream and sleep.

    D.: I am really awake and know that I am not in sleep.
    M.: Real waking lies beyond the plane of differences.
    D.: What is the state of the world then?
    M.: Does the world come and tell you "I exist"?

    D.: No. But the people in the world tell me that the world needs spiritual, social and moral regeneration.
    M.: You see the world and the people in it. They are your thoughts. Can the world be apart from you?

    D.: I enter into it with love.
    M.: Before entering thus do you stand aloof?
    D.: I am identified with it and yet remaining apart. Now I came here to ask Maharshi and hear him. Why does he ask me questions?
    M.: Maharshi has replied. His reply amounts to this: Real waking does not involve differences.

    D.: Can such realisation be universalised?
    M.: Where are differences there? There are no individuals in it.
    D.: Have you reached the goal?
    M.: The goal cannot be anything apart from the Self nor can it be something to be gained afresh. If that were so, such goal cannot be abiding and permanent. What appears anew will also disappear. The goal must be eternal and within. Find it within yourself.

    D.: I want to know your experience.
    M.: Maharshi does not seek enlightenment. The question is of no use to the questioner. Whether I have realised or not, how does it affect the questioner?

    D.: Not so. Each one's experience has a human value in it and can be shared by others.
    M.: The problem must be solved by the questioner himself. The question is best directed to oneself.

    D.: I know the answer to the question.
    M.: Let us have it.
    D.: I was shown the Kingdom of Heaven twenty years ago. It was by God's grace only. I made no effort for it. I was happy. I want to universalise, moralise and socialise it. At the same time I want to know Maharshi's experience of the Divine.

    Mrs. Jinarajadasa intervened and spoke softly: We all agree that Maharshi has brought the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Why do you press him to answer your questions relating to his realisation? It is for you to seek and gain it. The questioner listened to her, argued slightly and resumed his questions to Maharshi. After one or two light questions, Major Chadwick spoke sternly: "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you," says the Bible.

    D.: How shall I realise it? Major Chadwick: Why do you ask Maharshi to realise it for you?
    D.: I do not. Major Chadwick: The Kingdom is within you. You should realise it.
    D.: It is within only for those who hear it. Major Chadwick: The Bible says within you, and adds no qualifications. The questioner felt his conversation was already too long and so retired after thanking Maharshi and others.
    Namaste All,

    This is worth reading a thousand times. Not only to understand the motivations behind the missionary zeal but also as an upadesha of great value.

    While I had a discussion with Nirotu, I cited this several times. It is Maharshi Ramana's main teaching that the world does not come and tell anyone that it has a problem. It is the individual who presumes the negativity as per guna make up. Ramana was a perfect living example of contentment that is the untainted and bliss nature of the self. He never had the need to initiate anyone or go out and preach to anyone. However, if any troubled soul came to Him, such a soul returned in solace. And it is surprising that how people from all over the world gathered and still gather at Ramana's feet.

    It is nothing short of magic, since, to start with Ramana was in a hill cave and he never moved from Tiruvannamalai. It is magic, since all this seems so destined, as if chalked out in great detail. And often troubled souls would come to unburden some need of them. For example, a gentleman had a great need to write extempore poetry, which he did sitting in front of Ramana. Outside the asrama, his capabilities again vanished but he remained contented. This incident, I found funny, since Ramana kept an attendant at the gate to escort the poet in, telling the attendant in advance that the poet will recite a lot of poetry.

    Even great persons such as Rajagopalachari visited Ramana. Rajagopalachari said "Bhagawan I am a believer of Vishitadvaita, what is upadesha for me?". There was no need to pressurise or preach. Ramana said "Complete your pending work".

    Every one who has opened up benefits, except of course the likes of the missionary mentioned herein, who think that they alone possess the thing called love and they are hell bent on forcing their love down the throat of others. From the discussion it is clear that they do so because of great discontent in them, which they, due to hardened ego, can never disclose. They are not happy themselves yet they want to make others happy. What can misery do to uproot misery? (Somerset Maughm has fictionalised such a priest who went to transform a street worker and unable to bear the heat and guilt of continuous visions of her breasts that he started getting, He finally commited suicide).

    Thus they go away from Bhagwan empty handed. But such discontented gurus can be seen everywhere. Among friends, lovers, in husband-wife realtionship, in offices - everywhere. The apparently dominant is usually the needy.

    ------------
    Apparently, even Bhagwan cannot soften such hard egos. Bhagwan then remains silent. Only fearing Major Chadwik's bark, such hardened egos flee.

    Missionary activity is fundamentally flawed.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 18 March 2009 at 10:06 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •