Pranam devotee ji
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How is the child to be trained & when ? Who can decide it better than his Guru ? Let Guru decide whether he has to be trained as a Brahmin, a Khastriya, a Vaishya or a ShUdra. Perhaps the question which bothers you is how do you identify these traits at such early stage of life ?
No my friend non of the question bothers me. First let me correct you, however unpalatable it may sound, sudra had no formal traing in gurukul. Only three varna had upnayana sanskara given. A Brahmin receives this sanskara at the age of 8, kshatriya at 11, and vaisya at 12.
Please let us not have our personal opinion cloud our judgment, if you can provide any scripture evidence contrarily to what I have quoted please do so.
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See, the Brahmin is the highest state ... and unless the desired laskhanas are clearly visible, the training as Brahmin can wait. He has to learn many other traits of other varnas & that itself will take considerable time. The child should be with Guru for 25 years of age & Guru may decide at what stage a child is so exceptional that he is fit to be trained as a Brahmin.
Here again you are speculating. When a boy receive upanaya sansar that when the gayatri is given and only consideration of giving this sansar is the Gotra of the pupil, after that training in respective varna begins and for a Brahmin boy it begins between 5to 8 years.
If you are able to site any example that Guru having given gayatri to a Brahmin boy but declared him any different varna please give example.
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In fact, the brahminhood should be the highest degree that should be conferred on a student. At the time of passing out, the Guru would declare a student as a Brahmin, a Kshatriya, a Vaishya or a ShUdra … depending upon their academic performance. Just imagine, if that is done, how perfect our society will be.
Wow, I don’t think you have understood how it was in the olden days, you are making your judgement based on today’s sorry state of the varna. Nor do you understand the implications of your recipe.
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Ah ! That is not due to varna but due to caste system. The system is prevalent in non-Hindus too. The rich and poor always lives different colonies. There is no question of separation of family members. Every Varna is respectable ... why should we need separation at all ?
Well that’s how it was, they had separate areas, a Brahmin would not eat or drink from another varna, you are proposing in a same household different varna living, so can you imaging father saying to his son sorry mate I cant eat at your food you are not a Brahmin, ah! I can’t merry you a Brahmin girl, how do I arrange your marriage I don’t know any other varna. what is our ancestry would be, son we have no kula how can we? it could any one of the four.
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It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly.
I fully agree with Lord Krishna. One should be trained in an occupation which comes natural to his gunas acquired by birth. It doesn’t support Varna by birth theory.
We certainly are reading it differently
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You are proposing a change can happen yet Krishna is against it.
There is no verse from Krishna in BG supporting that Krishna even recognizes varna by birth theory.
What kind of answer is this, you had suggested varna can change like you would change nappies but I said in Chapter 18 Sri Krishna was talking about duties of Varnas. If you are kshatriya, then it is better to do kshatriya darma even poorly than brahmana darma perfectly.
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What would happen if we have a Kshatriya who is afraid to fight, A Brahmin who is dumb-headed, a Vaishya who has knowledge of all the Vedas but cannot be a good trader, a ShUdra who is a great fighter ?
Good question, Dhitrasra was unfit to be a king yet he inharited the kingdom, a vaishya even if he was a learned guy he would still be counting money.
if a Brahmin or kshtriya or any one who did not live up to the standard, by all intend and purpose he is just that varna in name only and has to live with the shame of it and face the conscious at the end of his life. Take for instance ashvasthama he is refered as Brahmin by Drupadi even after his heinous act.
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Or Gautam Buddha as a warrior ?? Krishna himself was a yadava by birth … he had no need to learn to fight as a Kshatriya & never try to teach anyone like a Brahmana … but he fought as a great warrior in wars & even taught highest philosophy to Arjuna … why didn’t he keep himself busy in milking cows & selling the milk and milk products ?
You need to take care and not mistake yadavas for cowherds, if you research you will find yadayas are kshtriya
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After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43)
Perfectly correct ! How does it support the Varna by birth theory ?
You need to read previous verse and contemplate, also to understand that our birth in certain family is not random occurrence or accident.
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Tell me one thing, Ganeshprasad ji, all your fathers’ children as you know them today should have been trained only the occupation as decided by their birth to certain family or as decided by their intellectual capabilities and natural instincts ? Think of your children, your friends’ and relatives’ children and you will realize that varna by birth theory could have done irreparable damage to those children and to the society.
I really do not understand what you are on about.
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If varna by birth theory is correct and supported by God Himself, then it must apply to all races, in all times and in all lands. It is certainly not so.
Other then the four varna there always were different class of people in the world like malecha and yavanas what to talk about them even in the time of Ram there were adivasi belonging to no varna why is that you will have to ask God for that.but in Vedic society that is how it was.
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Drona is Brahmin not only by birth but also by his natural instincts. The teacher has to know all skills … otherwise how will he teach different skills to children ? So, only being an exceptional warrior doesn’t put him in the category of a Kshatriya. Who taught the dhanurvidyaa to children in Ashrama ? The Brahmin teacher. Bhishmapitaamah is basically a warrior … he was never a teacher.
Drona had no business fighting in a war yet he did, did not change his status, Bhismapita was a kshatriya by birth yet he had wisdom better then a Brahmin yet he was known as Kshatriya, do you not see the point?
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Actually, what I feel that in the past, it might not make any difference whether you apply varna by birth theory or varna by inherent instinct (guana) … I don’t know. Perhaps, God used to decide births in that way in those times. It is quite possible that during the time of Mahabhaarta, this was the accepted theory in the society. However, that doesn’t prove that it was correct or had the sanction of God Himself. May be, Mahabharata war could have never taken place if Arjuna would not have ridiculed & humiliated Karna as Sootputra.
There are a lots of if, buts and may be, and if it was true (which I believe it was) why do you think that parampara would not be carried forward?
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When we read BG chapter 1 & see Arjuna expressing his great fear of births of varnashankaras etc. … why Krishna downplays it and doesn’t consider it a fit question to be answered at all ?? Why ?
OM
I am not going to speculate
Jai Shree Krishna