'I believe' vs belief

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: For a hundred bucks, most of us would say, "I believe in ghosts." even if we didn't. So the words themselves are meaningless. So what are some indicators that let ourselves know if we truly believe or not? Who's to say we're not just parroting a sage, or saying these things to fit into a group, saying an opposite belief just because we are stimulated by confrontation, to gain approval of others, or all kinds of other logically invalid reasons for saying the words? What, besides the words themselves convinces you?"

Aum Namasivaya

[PARAM]

Good logic EM. I don't care whatever the jerks say, I only care ॐ is happy with whatever I say and I do. My life is to satisfy ॐ with my Karma.

May Brahma be happy with me
May Vishnu be happy with me
May Shiva be happy with me

I am at their service.

[Mana]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste EM,


Thank you for posting, here are a few thought that your posting has inspired:

Money and belief, now this is tricky, money is arguably one of mAyA's most binding forces.

How can "I" even believe, that which manas informs me to be true; is manas not pure instinct? As such; is not discrimination whilst digesting knowledge, more important than the belief of that knowledge in its self?

If our mood affects our discrimination and thus our belief, is this not the greatest effective element in most all of our decision making, every choice being based upon a belief?
How can we act for God if we are directed by our mood, we are essentially serving our selves?

Unless of course, God is the mood.

If this is so; once freed from the grip of mood, is belief a non sense?


praNAma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

[Leena]

Namaste EM,

The words may be meaningless, but the truth can be felt by the conscience. One may not have the confidence to stick up for their beliefs and so tell others what they think they want to hear. This hurts the person's conscience, but no one else. How to tell if one is lying may be tricky, but it's up to them to decide if they want others to know.

Leena

[Jainarayan]

Namaste.

So what are some indicators that let ourselves know if we truly believe or not?

I can say I believe in Krishna. But it can mean two things:

1. Do I believe He exists?
2. Do I have faith in Him; do I surrender myself to Him; do I trust in Him to protect me, deliver me, bless me, love me?

Item #1 is a non-issue to me; I believe He exists.
Item #2 is my test of belief... having faith in Him.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste EM,

The words may be meaningless, but the truth can be felt by the conscience.

Vannakkam Leena: Good point. That little guy on the shoulder can say so much. Almost as much as actions.

Aum Namasivaya

[Eastern Mind]

What, besides the words themselves convinces you?"
Aum Namasivaya

Vannakkam: One is repeated observation. If you drive on a road every day, and it takes you a certain route to certain place, after a few days you begin to believe that the road will always take you to that same place.

In Hindu practice, let's say a belief is that the temple uplifts you, or you feel more insightful after a meditation, or a few rounds of japa. If you go to the temple 20 times, and each time you notice you feel better or calmer or uplifted, then you come to hold firm to that belief, and with each similar experience, the belief is reinforced, eventually becoming almost like an automatic reaction, and you start feeling uplifted even on your way to the temple , such is the power and strength of the belief.
This is just called direct experience. like learning the stove is hot.



Aum Namasivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: Yet another way to come to a belief is by other people in numbers and great time. A large number of people over a very long period of time have believed in something. A great example is our belief in the Vedas: a billion people now, less - earlier, but for time beyond memory. Not only that , but it also just makes sense rationally and intuitively. So when most Hindus say, "I believe in the authority of the Vedas" it isn't because they read them and came to the very same conclusions from direct experience (although that may well be the case with realised saints) , but it's that they trust in the leaders and other adherents of our vast faith.

Aum Namasivaya

[Mana]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste EM,


These kinds of mass popular beliefs have been assimilated to, or rather shown to resemble, migrating birds in flight; quite Beautiful!
I wonder does each bird feel that it is part of Śiva?

Do you also experience migrating birds in India, it is quite something to see them in flight?

pranāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Mana: I'm not in India, but I have seen masses of migrating birds, the largest being snow geese, in western Canada, in the tens of thousands, mainly in the fall.

They just know where to go, and yes it seems to me this is another good analogy for belief. Some do falter if they get lost from the pack, as well.

Aum Namasivaya

[JaiMaaDurga]

Namaste,

My indicators would be the years spent demanding empirical objective proof;
I had always been the first to scorn those whose lives seemed
governed by superstition or zealotry, and was quick to point out the
"madness of crowds", or the absence of critical thinking skills in an
individual, if one were to have pressed me as to my lack of religious
inclination.

I suppose an advantage of coming to Devi "the hard way", is that hostile
skeptics are often surprised to find me more than well-acquainted with
their usual arguments, and perhaps find their hostility less valuable in the
long run;)

JAI MATA DI

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste,

My indicators would be the years spent demanding empirical objective proof;
I had always been the first to scorn those whose lives seemed
governed by superstition or zealotry, and was quick to point out the
"madness of crowds", or the absence of critical thinking skills in an
individual, if one were to have pressed me as to my lack of religious
inclination.

JAI MATA DI

Vannakkam JMD: This makes sense. My thoughts when I started this thread was just reflection. I was the same type of questioner, especially in late adolescence, both on my own, and from observing others. I remember religious discussions over coffee, being asked whether or not I believed in something, responding according to some non-thinking way, like just to agree with the pretty girl who was asking ... and then on the way home asking myself, "Do you really believe in that?" which led to much deeper introspection.

I am suspicious of people who say they believe in things with no empirical evidence whatsoever, and then demonstrate contradictions between what they say they believe, and their actions.

Its an eye roll, and a "Really"?

Almost like the guy who says, "Back in Philadelphia, one night I took down Mike Tyson in a street fight."

Aum Namasivaya

[ZarryT]

Belief: Where you are unsure of the answer, and place your bets on yes or no.

"True belief" = knowledge. If you have a sense of knowing something as much as you know 2 + 2 = 4, then you "truly believe" it, since you feel and act as if you know it.