How the artists show Kalika Devi's appearence?

[kamala]

Namashkar, I have always wondered about what the ancient murtis for Kali ma looked like, but then I found out the ancient murtis of Kali ma were called Chumunda/eshwari Devi (different name according to a story). I was excited to see what she may look like and found out she looks nothing like how artisits depict her today. What do you think about this? Modern painting: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vmeMo1gsw94/RunGoKZiAJI/AAAAAAAAABE/cNP3Cb8GZMw/s1600/kali+ma+1.jpg Ancient murti: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Chamunda_Devi.jpg The artisits depict her as a motherly/not-so-scary goddesss, but the ancient murtis look way too scary.

[sm78]

The kali picture you have linked is as per the maha-kali dhyana sloka in devi mahatmya and not an artists imagination. There is an obscuration in the dakshina kalika murtis which are seen in public from the actual dhyana. In the dhyana kali is in sexual intercourse with shiva and not standing over him as is usually depicted.

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

I find the ancient depiction to be beautiful actually. I wish I could have that Murti on my shrine. Thank you sm78 for the supplementary information on the depiction.

Om Kali Ma
Om Namah Shivaya

[MahaHrada]

Besides what sm wrote Chamunda is not Kali, she is one of the 8 Matrikas.

[sm78]

Besides what sm wrote Chamunda is not Kali, she is one of the 8 Matrikas.

Well I thought I will write that but then in puranic lores including the devi mahatya the distinction is blurred. Kali is often used loosely to mean durga or other forms of the goddess. Kali as a tantric deity is definitely different from Chamunda.

Also the popular dhyana sloka of chamunda used in puja, I am aware of, is not unlike this so called ancient image - infact same, so one should not confuse chamunda and kali in the domain of puja.

[MahaHrada]

Well I thought I will write that but then in puranic lores including the devi mahatya the distinction is blurred. Kali is often used loosely to mean durga or other forms of the goddess. Kali as a tantric deity is definitely different from Chamunda.

Also the popular dhyana sloka of chamunda used in puja, I am aware of, is not unlike this so called ancient image - infact same, so one should not confuse chamunda and kali in the domain of puja.

yes there is also chamunda kali or chandi kali in a list of 8 Kalis, i don´t know where they were first mentionend, but the picture i think is Chamunda as one of the 7 or 8 Matrikas. It is hard to decide how exactly the different devis relate to each other but to assume that the Matrika chamunda, as shown in the picture, is an earlier form of dakshin kali is not that obvious. But she is certainly very fierce and not as forgiving as dakshin kali.

[kamala]

Well if you ask me, I am not 100% sure; but I have heard a story of two demons which Kali defeated named Chanda and Munda and after that everyone started calling her Chamunda because she defeated those demons.

[JaiMaaDurga]

Namaste,

Aside from simple outside academic or scholarly analyses (which can engender much passionate debate themselves!), we Shaktas are certainly not immune to the "The three blind men and the elephant" problem, which arises naturally, and cannot be avoided... I myself would never claim to be any authority, and will bow out of discussions which drift toward an argument about the "real" supreme nama rupa etc. of Devi.

That having been said, there has been much "blurring"; as many here already know, the reason for Maa Kali's lolling tongue has a different explanation, depending on who is asked- but Her defeat of Raktabija is not often debated. Generally speaking, it would appear that the older the depiction of Maa Kali, the more likely it is ugra form- She will appear as emaciated, fanged, etc. Here is an example of an older painting:
http://personal.carthage.edu/jlochtefeld/picturepages/deities/kali2.jpg

Again, for those new to SD, please remember, the terrifying aspect of any deity is never meant to be considered directed toward the devotee, but toward any asuric forces which would threaten harm... "scary", but a GOOD "scary";)

JAI MATA DI

[MahaHrada]

Well if you ask me, I am not 100% sure; but I have heard a story of two demons which Kali defeated named Chanda and Munda and after that everyone started calling her Chamunda because she defeated those demons.

There are many word associations with the names Chandi, Chanda, and munda, not only the one story, Chamunda can also mean Chinna munda dhara , "holder of severed head" also Mahachanda, "most terrifying" chandika terrifying etc.

Generally speaking, it would appear that the older the depiction of Maa Kali, the more likely it is ugra form- She will appear as emaciated, fanged, etc.

This is incorrect Kali as such is never shown emaciated, and older forms of kali are not depicted more fierce, this is correct only for Chamunda and other rare maha ugra rupas of devi.

The oldest forms that can be strictly identified as forms of Kali, not only of Devi, are Guhyakali, Kalasamkarshini and maybe Kamakalakali these are secret forms of kali that are seldom or never at all painted and are not worshipped via murtis, so you will not find ancient murtis or pictures as you will of chamunda, in the dhyana slokas they are not shown in a very fierce form (mahaugra) these ancient forms of Kali are always to be worshipped as fullbreasted with a well formend body, intoxicated with erotic delight., very similar to modern depictions of Dakshinakali. The identifications of ancient monuments showing mahaugra rupa devis with ancient forms of Kali are therefore not correct because more ancient forms of kali are rarely or never depicted. The Devi called Kali belongs to the class of Mahavidyas she is not one of the circle of the 7 or 8 Matrikas. Her form should arouse srngara rasa and therefore she is not shown emaciated. Of course since all devis are not separete, she is as well Chamunda as she is Laksmi or Sarasvati. Of course she would be closer related to other fierce deities, which can be seen by analysing the content of her diverse collections of Names or her "Amuletts" the so called Kavachas.

Again, for those new to SD, please remember, the terrifying aspect of any deity is never meant to be considered directed toward the devotee, but toward any asuric forces which would threaten harm... "scary", but a GOOD "scary"

This is a modern "new age" myth, any practise that has to do with fierce shaktis, without Guidance from an experienced Guru, is highly dangerous for the sadhak, this warning has been repeated over and over again in the shastras. Whosoever disregards these warnings does so at his own risk and peril.
A recent poster unwary of the danger of treading the shakta path without Guru Guidance already suffered from unwanted consequences. I hope others are more careful.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8971

[JaiMaaDurga]

Namaste,

My apologies to MahaHrada if it was felt I was guilty of misinformation; my post was meant to address the exoteric aspects of the question, and I am most firmly in agreement, regarding the dangers of casually promulgating or adopting practices which were never meant to be known or done without the strict guidance of guru- I have seen personally examples of this sort of "children playing with fire", and while Mickey Mouse may have been cute and entertaining in "The Sorceror's Apprentice", reality is not a Disney cartoon; the consequences, whether gradual or immediate, are sobering at best and horrifying at worst.

Again, I would not wish to misdirect someone toward something dangerous or foolish, and it is only out of ignorance, and the perhaps erroneous tendency to assume an internet forum is not going to be seriously considered as a source of information for those seeking guidance on the esoteric aspects. I have been told, "You may share, what 'state', and even what 'city'- but all must find their way after this; if they do not arrive, they were not meant to."

JAI MATA DI

[MahaHrada]

Namaste,

My apologies to MahaHrada if it was felt I was guilty of misinformation
Namaste JMD
No apologies needed, when the Devi is approached with the right attitude and a pure heart all is of course well and she will certainly grant her help and protection. But some people are careless with using mantras and tantric procedures and it is not the bad intent or fault of the fire that one can get burned if one comes too close.